Debate Thread

[Vik]

Thank you very much 2.0 for giving me another chance at making this thread. I will explain my reasons better than I did last time so as to make them clearer :)

Recently there have been a couple of threads in which issues came up that were not appropriate for discussion in the thread of origin. This debating thread is intended to be a place where people can come who want to discuss these things without danger of being off-topic.

Same rules apply here that apply and are abided by everywhere else on this forum of course - no flaming and all that nonsense - just discussion :) Of course if you feel a post has taken things too far don't forget the warning triangle next to each post and then our friendly neighbourhood mods can come along and investigate.

So, if you find yourself getting into a heated debate elsewhere on the forum, invite your opponent in here (at your own risk P) and battle away without fear of disrupting other threads :)

As I have forgotten what the original debate was about, I'll leave the floor open for anyone with an issue to start the ball rolling.

[wild cherry]

Ok this really annoys me.
Our country/ goverment and its constant taxes, fines ect.
Should people with more money than me pay more council tax than me.
My neighbour pays the same as me, but there on like 250,000 a year income, my family is on a lot less.
Should council tax be means tested?????????

[Bad_MaNneR$]

No it shouldn't, because it relates to your place of abode and not your work. That's what Income Tax is all about.

I do however believe that Council Meanies should be Tax Tested.

[wild cherry]

Originally Posted by Bad_MaNneR$

No it shouldn't, because it relates to your place of abode and not your work. That's what Income Tax is all about.

I do however believe that Council Meanies should be Tax Tested.

Ok BM right enough its based on the abode not the family income. maybe i exsplained myself wrongly.
What im getting at is, myself and my hubby scrape together what we can to pay council tax, and we are in arrears with it.
What i wanted to say was should my family who are a lot poorer than the neighbours make ourselves poorer still to pay the same as rich people, why cant it be means tested.
People on benefits dont pay it at all. my family are not on benefits, we bring in less than if we was on them, so my point is simply let people pay an amout thats affordable to them without makeing them suffer hardships to pay it.
I said to mr cherry recently give up work hun as you have medical issues you can then claim income support ect.
He said sorry babe i want to work, ahhh bless him, so basicly if you want to work hard, they make you poor, if you wan to sit on your butt and claim benefits you get rewarded

[tuppence]

* tuppence agrees with cherry and digs in her pockets for her..............a bit of fluff. some cookie crumbs and a used tissue...

* tuppence wonders if cherrys council will accept this

[Nay]

Haha, yeah, it's funny. My mum doesn't get more now she's working than when she used to be on benefits. I mean, I'm really glad it's there 'cos for some people it can be really difficult to get a new job immediately. My mum for instance; they are usually looking for younger people --though my mum's probably not going to retire within 8 years, and that seems to be quite a long time for me, and she has loads of work experience -- and there's only a limited amount of possible jobs some years. Others first need re-schooling and all kinds of courses before they can get a new job and that needs to be paid for as well. Believe me, it's not cheap. Sometimes you're forced to find a job outside your field though, for medical reasons for instance.

Where I live, they've made it harder to sit on your arse and let the money flow in though. You are obliged to apply at 4 places every month and you have to be able to prove it. If you really can't find anything in a year and a half (I think), they start offering you courses so you can take other jobs as well. If all fails, they'll let you do volunteering haha. I know someone who now works as a receptionist at a local hospital (which is an unpaid job), because he wanted to sit on his arse instead of finding a new job.

And you can't really say to lower the amount of money they get, 'cos it really isn't too much. Maybe instead the minimum wages for the ones that do work should be raised. But that will mean that the employers will have to get the money from somewhere to pay for it all, which in the end will be the consumer again. But in a way that's good; the ones that consume most are the rich people.

[Sarah]

This is a completely different thing but it's to do with the government and money..

I'm 20, and I have a part time job. I do exactly the same work as everyone else at that workplace, but because I'm not 21 I earn a great deal less money than those that are 21. Why? I do exactly the same job, spend as much time there as some people, but because of a 6 month difference in my age I'm not entitled to as much money. It's not as though it's a very small difference either. I just don't understand that. I mean, it's not as though I'm under 18 either. I'm 20! Argh, it just really winds me up.

I think that's really unfair too Sarah. I don't know where they plucked 21 from... it has no relevance whatsoever. The age should be 18 if anything, but then I don't agree with lowering wages because of age at all. My first job paid £3.20 an hour.... and it sucked. lol

[bunE]

I do think that unfair Sarah. My stepson works in primark and works damn harder than some of his lazy colleagues but as he is only 17 he gets loads less than them an hour!
You wanna know what I would like to discuss?? Its very different from what you are all currently discussing so ignore me if you still wanna talk about that k?
What annoys me is call centres, mostly the ones you have to ring to sort out a problem say with your cable bill. You get passed from pillar to post with "press 5 to kill yourself or 4 to be murdered" before you even speak to a human being. Then you have to explain your whole problem even though you spoke to somebody else in the same dept only yesterday and they should have put it on the computer. then they cant help you and you hold for ages waiting for someone else, then again you get passed around only to end up back at the original dept you spoke to. GRRRRRRRRRRRR it makes me mad!!

[wild cherry]

Oh hell, dont get me started on call centres.
I blooming hate them, the women sound bored and up there own asses, they dont know there elbow from there toes, and they take ages to do anything.
My bank call centre fook everyting up all the time, and i admit i do scream down the phone to them, i hate that they try to make me feel like im in the wrong, when its in fact them who,s fooked up.
I say retrain them every few months to keep them on the ball, and also make them aware that we are humans not an annoying voice on the end of the phone GGGGGGGGGGrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr cheeers bune im now fumeing

[bunE]

sorry cherry

[wild cherry]

Originally Posted by rabbitrun

sorry cherry

Hey babe its ok its good for me to rant lol, saves mr cherry getting an ear full.
Its not your fault i got angry over this topic lol, i was joking with the verse i wrote to be honest lol.
Anyway hun thanks for bringing up call centres i enjoyes it very much xxxxx

[Nay]

I heard that if you keep pressing 0 in those menus, you'll get to a person quickly in most cases. 0 is never an option, so I guess it's some kind of short cut.
Never had to try it but if you ever feel annoyed by the many options, give it a try and tell me if it works!

[bunE]

I just tried it and was told "thank you for your call goodbye "

[wild cherry]

Originally Posted by rabbitrun

I just tried it and was told "thank you for your call goodbye "

LMFAO, good on ya rabbit hahahhahhahaahah

[Bad_MaNneR$]

Surely that’s the same the whole world over? I mean just because you are young and paid a minimal wage, doesn’t mean you are the only one who gets stiffed by lazy workmates. I earn $240K per annum – but they only pay me $64K. There are many lazy sods who get paid $64K – but who only actually earn about half what they are paid.

The whole thing is, with variable pay-scales it’s a system of recognition for longevity and underpinning experience. The 16 year old who starts work as an apprentice carpenter is generally not going to be able to churn out as much (to the same standard) as a 30 year old who by now has 14 years experience on his side. There may be exceptions – but that is just it - they are exceptions and not the rule.

If it’s not fair that a 20 year old gets paid less than a 21 year old – let’s just extrapolate that out a little. Let’s say for instance I own a carpentry business and you come to work for me as an apprentice carpenter. I pay my tradesmen $40K pa and then I automatically start to pay you $40K pa – sure you both do the same job – but do you think the tradesmen would be happy that I pay them, experienced long term employees the same amount of money as an inexperienced newbie? One whom we have no idea about performance, conduct, ability, reliability? That’s one reason why there are variable pay systems. Besides that there are superannuation issues to consider, along with age based deduction limits. Just go talk to any union delegate and ask them why the junior staff get lower pay rates than the experienced staff.

21 is an arbitrary age in respect of pay scales. It stems back to legal ages to drink, drive, vote etc. Personally, I think that until you are 21 you really still have no idea (I know I didn’t and nor did most of my mates). Having a teenage son who in just over 2 months at age 16 can be given a learner’s permit to drive a car is scary. Having seen the effects of youth and inexperience on the roads and ending up with them in Hospital Emergency Departments, all governments world wide should combine to re-raise the legal age for driving to 21. As a matter of fact they should also stop pandering to the whiny arsed “Generation Y”, about whom everything is “Me. Me. ME” and bump it back to what we Generation X-ers have been subjected to. Sh♥t it hasn’t hurt us. Kick the legal age for everything (well maybe not shagging) back to 21.

21 to drink
21 to smoke
21 to drive
21 to vote
21 to get a credit card

COROLLARY:
By the standards of “fairness” emerging in this thread – all 4 year olds should automatically be given mobile phones, be allowed to drive cars, ride motorcycles, drink alcohol, smoke cigarettes and vote in the general elections.

* Bad_MaNneR$ sits safe in the hopes that regardless of what anyone chooses to argue – the systems that are in place at the present – especially variable pay scales will not change unless the democratic societies we all choose to live in are converted to communism.

CALL CENTRES - Rabbitrun – If MY call is SO IMPORTANT to them – How come they haven’t employed more staff to answer my call properly?

* Bad_MaNneR$ goes over and sits on the right side of the naughty step with Genghis Khan.

[Nay]

Originally Posted by rabbitrun

I just tried it and was told "thank you for your call goodbye "

Hahaha!

I didn't know that, honest!


BM: 21 is too old. For a driver's licence al right, maybe.
Where I am, it's 16 for drinks (but for beverages containing > 15% alcohol it's 18). 18 for all the rest too. Saying 'people below 21 still have no clue' -- which I obviously think is rubbish, as a member of the age group -- does not mean you have to restrict everything. Once again, maybe except for the driver's licences because there's a bigger chance of harming others when you're on the road 'and have no clue'.

[Sarah]

Hmm.. I don't mean to be rude at all but in a reply to your post BadManners I do have a couple of things to say.

You say that until people are 21 they have absolutely no clue. What makes 21 so special? Does that mean that 6 or 4 or 2 months before your 21st birthday you have no idea, but as soon as you reach that 21st you know things? I don't think that's true. Heck, I could argue that there are some adults out there over 21 that still don't know anything. Some people are more mature than others and sometimes I don't think an age can be placed on maturity as easily as that. I know this may seem slightly biased because I fit into that age group, but I'm nearer 21 than 20 and I don't consider myself to have 'no idea' as you put it. I work, I study and I put a heck of a lot of effort in. I could just sit at home and not do a single thing and scrounge money off everyone else. But I don't. I work blummin' hard. As do you and billions of other people.

As for the job part of it, you used the examples of apprenticeship. I can understand this to an extent but in my situation this doesn't really come into it as it's not that kind of job. There are no apprentices there. The people with more experience, as in the managers who have managed companies before, obviously do get paid more. But what I'm arguing is that the regular staff, who all started the job at exactly the same time when the place opened a year ago with no experience in working in this area of work, are all paid differently, when there are no 'experience boundaries' to differentiate pay. We were all new to the job, having never done it before, everyone learning and training together. Although I do understand where you are coming from with the idea. :)

This all probably makes no sense whatsoever. Haha!

[Bad_MaNneR$]

Nay - wait until you are 30 and have a tribe of little Nay's following you around - you may have different views - hell I knew everything at 17 and was a "man of the world" or so I thought. Glad you agree on the 21 for drivers licences - I think they should also make it mandatory to hold a first aid certificate before applying for a Learner's Permit too.

Originally Posted by Sarah

Hmm.. I don't mean to be rude at all but in a reply to your post BadManners I do have a couple of things to say.

Hey it's a debate thread - that's why you can say what you like within reason - I'm big and ugly enough to know that it's not personal - just don't call me any rude names and you will be fine

Originally Posted by Sarah

You say that until people are 21 they have absolutely no clue. What makes 21 so special? Does that mean that 6 or 4 or 2 months before your 21st birthday you have no idea, but as soon as you reach that 21st you know things? I don't think that's true.

Nothing special about 21 really - it’s arbitrary (I could have said 25 or 30) I think the actuality (going back to the original "WHY?") is that it dates back to colloquial “coming of age” as different to the latter day "age of majority". It’s traditional stuff and we can't muck about with tradition - it upsets the whole balance of life. Did you also know that on your 21st birthday you magically get given the clues to life? However you still don’t understand them until you are much older. I think that happens when you turn 40 – or maybe 50 – haven’t got that far yet. (OK so I made that bit up).

Age hasn’t been the only discriminatory factor in history though. Take the USA. It wasn't until the passage of the Equal Pay Act in 1963 that it became illegal to pay women lower rates for the same job strictly on the basis of their sex. Problem is there is still worldwide wage inequity for women. At least age based inequity balances out as you get older (you have no choice in it really – even Oil of Ulay or Olay or Ulan can’t stop the ageing process). But in many places there are men and women working side by side and being paid different scales for doing the same amount of work, solely based on gender.

Originally Posted by Sarah

Heck, I could argue that there are some adults out there over 21 that still don't know anything. Some people are more mature than others and sometimes I don't think an age can be placed on maturity as easily as that. I know this may seem slightly biased because I fit into that age group, but I'm nearer 21 than 20 and I don't consider myself to have 'no idea' as you put it. I work, I study and I put a heck of a lot of effort in. I could just sit at home and not do a single thing and scrounge money off everyone else. But I don't. I work blummin' hard. As do you and billions of other people.

Very true – I see it a lot in my job (immaturity) hell we sacked a 45 year old recently for doing “immature schoolkid stuff” highly improper and not suitable in the workplace. And no it wasn’t a HE is was a SHE – hence schoolkid stuff not schoolboy stuff.

Originally Posted by Sarah

As for the job part of it, you used the examples of apprenticeship. I can understand this to an extent but in my situation this doesn't really come into it as it's not that kind of job. There are no apprentices there. The people with more experience, as in the managers who have managed companies before, obviously do get paid more. But what I'm arguing is that the regular staff, who all started the job at exactly the same time when the place opened a year ago with no experience in working in this area of work, are all paid differently, when there are no 'experience boundaries' to differentiate pay. We were all new to the job, having never done it before, everyone learning and training together. Although I do understand where you are coming from with the idea. :)

This all probably makes no sense whatsoever. Haha!

Makes perfect sense. Thing is, if you don’t like the pay inequity – you need to choose the type job that doesn’t discriminate (albeit lawfully) on an age basis – like oh I don’t know – any of the computer industries – such as game development – then you can name your price at any age.

[Nay]

Originally Posted by Bad_MaNneR$

Nay - wait until you are 30 and have a tribe of little Nay's following you around - you may have different views - hell I knew everything at 17 and was a "man of the world" or so I thought. Glad you agree on the 21 for drivers licences - I think they should also make it mandatory to hold a first aid certificate before applying for a Learner's Permit too.

Haha!
No, I probably agree that you've still got a lot to learn when you're under 21, and being 18, I don't really think I know it all better. The thing is, us under 21ers are also living creatures with our own thoughts and wishes, whether they change when we're 30 or not. That's why I think it's just not really logical to have a 21 age restriction on drinking, smoking, voting and getting a credit card.

I think by the time you're 18 you're about done with your secondary education and getting out of a little bubble (though some keep entering new bubbles as soon as the old ones burst). You may be confused and all, but I don't see that as a reason why you can't vote: you're an adult now, you could be living on your own (paying taxes and what not), so you need a right to say something. Same for credit cards: though I don't like the things, I think they should be based on your spending habits and the stability of your income, not your age. As for smoking and drinking... On the one hand, lots of students are ♥♥♥♥s so I'd rather the ones who fit that category would stop drinking --because they get worse-- but let the rest of us have fun alright ?

[Sarah]

I wish I could choose another job, but that'll have to wait until I've done my degree I'm afraid. Part time jobs here are pretty much all the same and it's hard to find one that doesn't discriminate. But hey, it's money and I'm earning some at the end of the day so I suppose I shouldn't be too down hearted! Haha.

Going back to the whole "21" debate though, now that I've thought about it a bit more, I do see what you mean. I'm about to start my last year of uni so in August next year I'm going to be out in the real world and that's only just hit me recently and it's quite a scary idea! :|

[Bad_MaNneR$]

I once ran the NSW Government's Firearms Hotline and specifically chose staff that:

a) Spoke English without any strange accents
b) Had exceptional customer service skills
c) Had no preconceived ideas about the information they were to answer questions on
d) Were very fast learners
e) Knew how to get the information they needed in a hurry

Of course I developed a hell of a lot of grey hairs and was working 16 hour days, but at least the customers ended up happy, because they got intelligent responses, rather than the usual garbage. They were an awesome team and we still catch up for drink or twelve from time to time.

Having experienced outsourcing our calls for some time to one of those agencies - we were getting 1000 hits a minute on our PABX - I can say it's my experience that most of the people that work in call centres seem to do so beause they are either overseas backpackers looking for a fast buck or locals who can't get real jobs and have no qualifications to do so. Sure they are humans - but when you go into that line of work - expect to be shouted at. Lets not chill - it's a debate thread - and who ever heard of a chilled debate??????

[Cunny_Funt]

O..M..G call centers are a right pain, in ones royal butt. I wouldn't mind so much if they WOULD LISTEN to WHAT I was trying to BLINKING WELL SAY. So manyyyyyy times i have wanted to rip my own toe nails out, as it goes in one ear, and out the other. it is so blooming frustrating. its like AARRGGGHHHH Purleaseeeeeeeee just give me someone that will listen to what it is, i am having a problem with. Gonna sign off this post, as i will ramble on and on and end up in bad form

* Cunny_Funt loves a good debate, let me know when it starts

[Bad_MaNneR$]

Originally Posted by Cunny_Funt

................. Gonna sign off this post, as i will ramble on and on and end up in bad form

* Cunny_Funt;87494 loves a good debate, let me know when it starts

What's wrong with "Bad" form?

[Vik]

I think a large part of the problem is that the call centres are often so noisy anyway, the person who is being called can't hear the caller in the first place. Put a regional accent into that and there's no chance. I love hearing different accents, but if someone has a particularly strong one which is not the same accent as the people they call on a regular basis, then they do need to make an effort to moderate that accent. It just makes sense all round - it aids communication and that's what the company is interested in.

It's annoying when people phone up trying to sell something, but I've never had a problem with saying 'thank you for your call, but I'm not interested.' That's it, temporary incovienience over, and no blood pressure has been raised.

EDIT: If they are rude to you like in Buffer's example above, then I'd take every action I could to make sure that person is not employed for much longer. But generally I find them polite.

When it's a company who you call and who you expect to be able to help you however, it IS infuriating when you speak with unprofessional people. I find it solves nothing to lose your temper though and I try to remember you I'm speaking to another human being, no matter how moronic they seem to be, lol. If it's a big problem, inform the company by way of complaint. If you shout, the company will assume you are in the wrong, and will take no action.