OK I have made this thread in response to the discussion in the Madeline thread. I feel there is a lot more to be had from this friendly debate, but that there is not a good place to have it.

Discussions that have spilled over from other threads can also be brought here so as not to go too off-topic elsewhere. The title of this thread is meant in jest (a tribute to a TV character in the UK) and not meant to imply that people can fight tooth and nail! Let's keep it interesting and friendly :)

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OK, as to the reason I made the thread - there is a discussion here about making judgements and having opinions. Pagan has said that people are entitled to have opinions, but should not make judgements unless they are perfect themselves. I hope she'll forgive me if I have misunderstood her in my summary. I do understand that I am taking her words somewhat out of context by turning them into a new debate, but I thought the subject was interesting, so please don't take this as her exact opinion in this matter, rather as a spring board for discussion. I hope she'll join in! :)

I'd like to say that people cannot form opinions unless they have made one or two judgements on the way - that the two ideas are inextricably linked. I'd also like to say that judgements are not always negative, for example 'she seems nice' is a judgement (as well as an opinion) just as much as a prejudice statement is.

I think judgements form an important part of our every day lives, that we make them all the time consciously and unconsciously. I think people get confused between making judgements about people, and having prejudices that dictate our judgements.

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Opinions are judgements. There is no chance you have all the information there is concerning a topic or person, so you make a judgement to the best of your ability based on circumstance, past experience, ideology, norms and values, etcetera, which is then 'your opinion'.

If you view judgement (like I presume Pagan intends it) as a definite conclusion about what is wrong or right, well... you'd have to be what they would call 'divine'. If you say that, because your judgement is never entirely accurate, you should try to refrain from judging, well... Good luck surviving! If you approach every situation or person as if you have no knowledge about them, you're what is called 'naïve'. "Oh hey, this lion could be nicer and less hungry than the one that bit my leg off last week. Let's pet it!"

I'm not ridiculing the argument here, but we need judgements, otherwise we'd be lost. Of course, there is a limit; you should definitely be open to the fact that your judgements aren't always correct. You should also not base too much on your initial judgements, because you could be building on a non-existent foundation that's prone to collapse. I think that is the key point here: it's not all evil, but don't take it too far. And don't take your judgement for a fact!

As an aside: I've once read a research in which they showed how poor our judgement can sometimes be. They analysed witness reports. Some swore the assailant wore, say, a red shirt, and they were without doubt. Camera showed that he wore something entirely different.

Another aside: How we interpret and colour or memories is also important. We can re-analyse our memories to suit the situation now, while the instance we remember should be telling us something else.

I could go on forever. Sorry.

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Judgement, as Dinnae said, is used in all sorts of ways. Just one example would be as an employer. You must use judgement to decide who would be the best candidate for a job. This is, by nature, discriminatory. However, that doesn't mean it has to be negative. A more taxing use of judgement might be when all your candidates are fantastic for the job and you have to find that defining characteristic in a prospective employee which secures your final decision.

Judgements also are used in things such as Dinnae referred to, where colours, shapes and perspective need to be determined. This type of judgement is far from definite and also something we learned. Infants are unable to use perspective like we do. Jean Piaget discovered they were 'egocentric'; unable to see things from another's point of view. He showed this by using a model of three mountains and finding out if the child knew someone looking at the mountains from another angle would have a different view. They couldn't, they assumed that the other person was seeing the same thing as they were. There is still room for a little egocentrism in adulthood, and it applies to all sorts of judgements. This is where the discrepancies regarding memory, and perspective come from. These are opinions.

So a sign of development in the mind is the ability to see things from another's perspective. We can only truly know our own opinions as they are introspective, stating the obvious a bit there lol, but I believe we learn by sharing opinions, or judgements. How much have you learned from others? There is always someone who makes you think 'Oh, i never thought of it like that'. This is interesting. Our judgements and opinions are what determine who we are in life, also we tend to spend time around those who have similar opinions and attitudes. So our judgements/opinions are so deeply a part of us they affect the social surroundings we find ourselves in. It's a way to grow in understanding and decide who we are.

I think what sparked this discussion was a more colloquial understanding of 'judgement', meaning to condemn someone, I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong. What I was trying to say that you can't have opinion without judgement (in its traditional understanding), they are juxtaposed. There is evidence of this in the dictionary definition she used in the 'in the news' thread, which in part, described an opinion as a 'judgement'.

My judgement on the madalaine mc cann story i gave to you from my heart.
I will keep the opinion i made as gospel i wont change it.
I just hope like i said in other thread that i dident offend or upset anybody.
All i wish for is for her to be reunited with her loving family.
God bless maddy

A tense/heated debate can be fully accomplished without insults.

OK PEOPLE: RULES!

No insulting people's opinions. Debate them, don't insult them.

Don't think you're better or that you know more than any other member. Kids or no kids, parent or not parent, everybody has some kind of experience and a perspective, and as such everyone is intitled to their opinion.

Likewise, you're responsible for your opinion.

YOU MAY NOT EDIT YOUR MESSAGES.

Think carefully what you want to write, then write it, think again, edit, read it, edit again if you think it needs to be edited, and then post. Edited messages will result in warnings and loss of reputation points.

Be Objective

Debate the point at hand, don't trail off into arguments, don't respond to provocation.

State your opinions and/or any new information that comes up, debate your opinions and/or the new information. Without insulting each other.

If there's any posts insulting anyone, be it with a smart vocabulary, slang, or stuff that'd get covered in hearts, that member will be automatically punished, depending on the severity of the insult. Watch your tempers, NO FLAMING. FLAMINGS WILL BE REWARDED WITH AN AUTOMATIC BAN.

I shall read and moderate every single post. I will edit or delete without warning or explanation anything that violates these rules. If you don't like the rules, don't join the debate.

Have fun.

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What a complete pleasure it is to be a part of such a well run forum, with great moderators and loving people.
Im so glad im part of this community, and im looking forward to future debates and talks with you all.
Love kindness and best wishes to the whole forum.
Best wishes as always love cherry

Though this can take over a topic, it's very important to know that you're talking about the same thing and at least try to avoid miscommunication by forming working definitions and clearing up sentences you understood otherwise.

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Thank you dinnae, cherry.
Now please, avoid posting here if it's not about the debate. Any unrelated posts will be labeled as spam and will dissapear from now on.

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To judge someone because you can honestly say you have never been, or put anyone in, a certain situation similar to that which you have formed an opinion on could be a far more ill-informed judgement than one made by someone who can relate to the circumstances. In my opinion ;)

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OK 2.0 let's debate :P

One of the points of me making this thread was in order to debate an interesting point of semantics that came up in a place that was not appropriate for me to discuss it - this thing about judgement versus opinion, and whether or not making judgements is acceptable. The other point being to take some heat away from that other topic - I never intended this thread to be about Madeline as I find it distasteful to argue about such a sensitive topic. However, if that's the direction people want it to go in, so be it.

Sorry for maybe being a bit weird and finding semantics interesting, but I'm a linguistics scholar, lol. I want to make it clear from the onset that although I am of course not going to try to win an argument by focussing only on the other people's choice of words and attempting to pick apart a perfectly good argument through it which is a shoddy tactic, I will make a new discussion to talk about linguistic matters if it's something I find interesting, as I have done on a larger scale by creating this thread, for example.

Honestly, I am not sure if that's what you were getting at in your post, forgive me if it's not what you meant.


I LOVE these rules - they are designed to make people think before they speak and that's something very important. I'm going to die a very fast death however with this no editing thing. I hate seeing a typo and not being able to correct it! If I make too many mistakes I'll have to edit or else I'll go crazy, and just risk being banned, lol.

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OK, an idea has been suggested to actually make a structured debate and not one that came with rules in the middle of it and such, this one didn't go quite as planned. It was a good test though, thanks for those of you who participated.

Vik, you're on. I'll post the link of the new one here as soon as it's up.

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If you have nothing nice to say then Zip !!!

No posts have been deleted from this thread tupp... Perhaps you posted elsewhere?

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Oh.. rightyo!

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