I heard a terrible story today about something that happened at my children's soccer training a few days ago which I will relate in some detail in a minute. It made me very angry, and sad, and reminded me of a book I had read, called "Children are people,too", and it also reminded me of some discussions I have had previously on isketch with various people regarding appropriate discipline for children.

Firstly, let me tell you about the soccer training.
Last year, a boy, one year older than my son - a very timid, maladjusted boy due to the suffering of 8 years of abuse by his father (not many people know that part) finally gained the courage to join the school soccer team. The change in his confidence by the end of the season, brought about by the acceptance of being part of a team, and the comraderie that it brought, was amazing. When I asked his mum at the end of the season if he was going to play next year, she, with glistening tears, assured me she would do everything within her power to encourage it, as it had been such a positive influence on him.

The team is coached by a woman, who was unavailable this day, so her husband took over. He had recently been released from hospital after surgery on his neck.

Towards the end of training, the boy kicked the ball, aiming to place it back where the training equipment was so that it could be put away. He mis-kicked, it hit the man in the neck, close to where his recently placed stitches were. It would have hurt the man considerably. In pain, he went up to the child, angrily gesticulating, and said "You are a F***CKING IDIOT!!!!! What the F*** do you think you were doing???!"

The boy burst into tears. He would not go to school for the next two days, certain that all adult males were there for one purpose, and refuses to play soccer again. The man did not apologise, and felt he had every right to speak to the boy in that manner.

Last year, a different boy called one of the coaches a F***ing B*** and was suspended for 2 games as per the sporting code of conduct that all players sign at the beginning of the season.

My question...."What's the difference here?" It seems acceptable for an adult to say something to a child, yet not acceptable for a child to be similarly disrespectful to an adult.

I am saddened and dismayed at the double standards that applies in these situations, where people tend to forget that children are PEOPLE, too.

In this book, which is one of those books that has really struck a chord with my beliefs, the author writes:
"....I ask participants in training sessions on behaviour management to consider what carers should do when they are feeding someone who appears deliberately to spit the food back at them. There are always some people in the group who say it is okay for the parent to smack the child. But then I complicate the situation by saying: I was not thinking about a 3 year old, but of an 80 year old with Alzheimers. Now is it okay to smack the elderly person?..."

Anyhow, getting close to the word limit on this post, so I guess this debate topic is about the discipline of children. Do you think it is appropriate to smack them to 'teach' them what is right and wrong?

When it comes to disciplining children (in my case my nieces and nephew when they come to stay as there are no children in my family), I agree with the whole "Supernanny (http://www.supernanny.co.uk/TV-Show/Clips.aspx)" way of thinking. I don't believe that smacking them has a positive outcome, but instead some of the other methods used by Supernanny can and do work.

For instance, the naughty step. If a child has been naughty, the parent explains to the child what they have done wrong and the parent gives the child a warning. If they repeat the naughty action, they are placed on the naughty step for 1 minute for each year of their age, with no interaction with people or objects. When this time is over, the parent requests an apology.
This way, the child knows what they have done wrong and what the consequences are for doing this action.

For the case you have described Saff, I also believe that swearing in front of a child is appauling. It lowers their self-esteem. It is also another word that you are teaching them which may be repeated to the parent as well as to others.

Firstly, that man needs a damn good beating. What a bloody prick :@ He shouldn't be allowed to EVER return to the school to teach, coach or whatever. A kid makes a mistake but an adult should know better. The ball didn't exactly kill the guy or tear his stitches apart did it?!

ALL teachers, volunteers and helpers in schools have a set of guidelines to follow. More importantly, they are responsible for children and should be there to protect them whilst they are in their care. That's made me so mad so I'm just gonna stop right there.

Secondly, I agree with db. The suppernanny way of disciplining your/a child is the way to go.

My sisters don't hit their kids. Although there has been the odd occassion. But it's not a serious hit/beating/punch. If they do something really wrong they'd get a slap on the hand. It's never been a hard slap, it doesn't leave a mark or go red. But because it's not something my sisters would do, even the lightest slap would really upset my nieces and nephews. They know their parents would never hit them so any physical punishment no matter how light or small shocks them and really makes them think twice. It's very, very rare that a slap on the hand is given though. Probably only when they were younger too.

Now if my 8 year old nephew does anything naughty (he's the only who's likely to misbehave regularly) he's told to sort out what he's done wrong and apologise. My sister counts to three, five or ten (depending on what's going on) rectify the situation and if he gets stroppy, argues back or refuses he's sent out the room/sits on his own somewhere for about 5-10 minutes.

Other punishments my nieces and nephews get are no sweets/treats on the weekends if they don't listen or make a huge fuss over nothing during the week.

Everything I say in the following post is my opinion, even if I do not explicitly say "in my opinion" after every statement.


My question...."What's the difference here?" It seems acceptable for an adult to say something to a child, yet not acceptable for a child to be similarly disrespectful to an adult.

The simple answer to that question is, I think, authority. The coach is the authority in this situation so he is given more leniency in how he behaves.

I'd say it doesn't stop there: that the head of school or whoever wrote the rulebook is higher up on the authority ladder than the coach, and if they haven't reprimanded him for his actions then that's them forgiving him because his opinion is more "valid" than a child's because he's the higher authority.

In fact...

I am saddened and dismayed at the double standards that applies in these situations, where people tend to forget that children are PEOPLE, too.

It's kind of like, everyone is equal, but some people are more equal than others, isn't it?

Or everyone is entitled to respect, but some people are entitled to more respect than others.

I don't think it stops with children, really. In a workplace, you might find a boss who puts down a member of staff and verbally abuses them, but if the employee spoke back to the employer, that'll be the end of their job - it won't be tolerated. Double standards as well. It's not just children.

In this book, which is one of those books that has really struck a chord with my beliefs, the author writes:
"....I ask participants in training sessions on behaviour management to consider what carers should do when they are feeding someone who appears deliberately to spit the food back at them. There are always some people in the group who say it is okay for the parent to smack the child. But then I complicate the situation by saying: I was not thinking about a 3 year old, but of an 80 year old with Alzheimers. Now is it okay to smack the elderly person?..."

I would take each case on it's own merit (...for lack of a better word).

I mightn't slap a child if they weren't eating (or an adult), but I might get more easily fed up with the child than the adult - because if the child was spitting food out for no good reason at all (maybe I didn't give them a chocolate at breakfast so they've decided to be difficult at lunch), then I'll probably leave them to it and wait for their moodiness to pass. If an adult with Alzheimer's spat food out at me, I'd try to be more understanding, because I know they have a disability so that might cause their mood swings. In the same way, I'd try to be more understanding with a child with a disability or good reason to be moody.

Anyhow, getting close to the word limit on this post, so I guess this debate topic is about the discipline of children. Do you think it is appropriate to smack them to 'teach' them what is right and wrong?

Again, I think it depends on the child.

As a general rule, I think 'no smacking' is good. But I think you have to remember that different children react to different types of discipline in different ways.

A light smack (not really painful, but just to sort of say, "hey, I said no") might send the message across to some children, but not to others. With smacks I don't think the question is whether the child stops being naughty or not, but whether the child ends up thinking violence is acceptable or not. Some children might take a smack but not be violent themselves (in the future), but others might take a smack and decide that since a smack managed to make them stop, violence is the way forward.

I don't watch Supernanny but to take the example of the naughty step db described, I can see that method working for some children and not for others. Some might reflect on their actions and learn from it, while others might just sit there scratching the step until their minutes are over, then make a fake apology. How will you know if the child has actually learned what you want them to learn from it?

So basically, I guess what I'm saying is that double standards aren't only there between child-adult relationships, and that it's hard to generalize that one disciplinary method is superior to others.