Further to my previous post in the now defunct 'Debate Thread' - I am interested in hearing your views regarding ID Cards. As the UK has been put on Critical Alert for terrorism - is it now time to introduce this system for our own safety or is it just the governments way of policing us and getting more revenue? I would also be interested to hear from members whose countries already have a similar system in operation already.

From the Debate Thread:


On the ID card subject: In the Netherlands, carrying around an ID card is obligatory (and has been for the past year and a half).

Personally, I don't think it's too much bother to carry it around, because it's just another card in my wallet. But that's not really the point. They can ask you for your ID now and if you don't have it, you're breaking a law.

I think that's (potentially) unconstitutional; you shouldn't have to prove anything until you do something wrong or until you're suspected of doing something wrong. Now, it is usually not so that the police goes out on the street and ask all passers by for their ID card, because if that were the case I'd move instantly. No joke. Despite this not being the case, I still feel it's too much of a 'diver's licence', only for being allowed to walk outside. For instance, the following could happen (and it does, all the time):

A friend of mine was hanging out with a few others by a shopping centre. The day before, a group of youth were being a nuisance (and maybe they broke something), so the officer asked them if they could identify themselves. They were not that group and they were doing nothing wrong. My friend didn't bring any identification because he has a passport (he used to travel outside the EU a lot), and passports are quite annoying to carry around. He could have fined him there. He didn't, but it happens.


What I think is much worse, however, is the new passports that will have fingerprints and DNA data stored on them in the future. I seriously don't know what to do when they introduce that to the passports; I can't refuse getting one! I'm forced into this because I want to be a citizen. I'll never give my DNA or fingerprint though, unless I'm a prime suspect in a case where a confirmation can only be made through those data. What to do, what to do...


I'd also like to add that I doubt this method is very effective against terrorism. You need detective work for that, not giving everybody a pass.

(Aww Nay, I was going to move your post for you. You've ruined my practice fun.. :razz:)

I'm all for IDs for everyone. It reduces crime and makes identity theft harder IMO.

In venezuela it seems that as soon as you become a landed immigrant you're issued a "cedula", the national ID card. If you're a citizen you're issued one and if you're a foreigner you're issued a different one. Children as young as 9 years old are entitled to one, not sure if any younger. It's just a piece of plastic that says you are who you say you are, nothing else. Now whether it's constitutional or not that remains a subject for the parliaments of each country to decide on, but along the lines that you don't have to prove who you are to anybody if you haven't done anything wrong, also the authorities should have no reason to stop you and ask for it if they don't suspect you. If they do they probably suspect you're in on something or whatever. It plays both ways.
I don't see what the drawbacks of such a system is, unless they're integrated with high tech chips that allow sensors nationwide to detect your presence if you have the card on you. Americans and canadians already have something like an ID system, their driver's licenses. Granted you don't get one until you're old enough to drive, but it's a document that identifies you and authorities will recognize it.

It's just another card. But i also think this is pointless in countries with small populations and low crime.

The ID card, might reduce some types of crime.
It will do nothing to stop terrorism.
Pushing for ID's, by saying it will prevent terrorism is misleading the public, IMO.

The July 7th bombers were UK citizens, I think they also had unblemished (ie none) police records. If they had an ID card (like every other UK citizen without a police record), how could it have prevented their attacks?

The UK, could probably do with some form of standard national identity card, to save us having to have driving licenses and an inifinity of other pieces of paper/card describing us.

However, what is the criteria for obtaining a card? The flaws in the passport service - read 'The Day of the Jackal' on how - though tightened up recently, are still there and exploitable with variations.
And how can you really prove you are who you say you are? What makes YOU John Smith?
Phasing it in, from birth/arrival in the UK (ie DNA linked), is probably the only realistic and unsubvertable way of making sure an ID, is a real ID. But doing that...smacks of big brother.
Plus 'phasing it in' over say 25 years (with 100% complete vetting of applications), doesn't really work for knee-jerk reaction politicians.

:eek:

As JASR has already said, ID cards won't stop terrorism as, so far, those carrying out attacks in the UK have been UK citizens. We need to tackle why they feel the need to perpetrate these attacks, but that's another topic. It's true that ID cards have been used to identify terrorists but, as we saw with the Madrid train bombings, you sadly cannot rely on them to stop attacks.

Personally I have no objection to carrying an ID card, depending on what data they are intending on holding. You hear varying reports from it just carrying basic identificational information to the more extreme reports of when you last went to the toilet, and what for. Until we are made fully aware of what they intend to keep I think it's hard to make a definitive verdict.

Loyalty cards in stores track your purchases, use of credit cards track your financial transactions. Everywhere we go there are CCTV cameras, more in the UK than in anywhere else in the world apparently. We already have a degree of Big Brother, it's just not 'official' yet. These companies freely sell our details; buying habits, names, addresses etc to third parties for targetted marketing. Will our 'official' details be bandied about like commodities to the highest bidder too? Again, this needs addressing before a I'd make a final decision.

You hear civil liberty groups expound how it'll infringe on our privacy, but I fail to see why unless the data is too intrusive or abused. So the government would have my DNA and fingerprints, it's not a problem unless I plan to commit a crime and if I'm the victim it might just help solve it quicker (hey, I can be an optimist sometimes.)

Until all those questions are answered my main issue with ID cards is the cost. Again we get varying reports from a matter of pounds to £100 or more, which is extortionate in my opinion. If they're going to be voluntary then cost isn't so much an issue, but if they are compulsory they should be free. I don't travel abroad so don't have a passport, but nor am I compelled by law to carry one regardless. If I did I'd not expect to have to pay for it.

To push past all the identity fraud and terrorist less important impacts of ID cards,
you seem to be missing the important points such as underage drinking, what about all the poor underage kids who can no longer get into there local? or get served at there local offie? thats a major part of growing up i think, and ID cards would completely ruin it.
Corse im not that bothered about it now with less than 3 months to go, but i would have been a few years back.

Don't worry Katie, I went to a bar that was infested with <16s when I went there on a quiet night. (16 is the drinking age here)
Most places here aren't all that strict. But definitely have a back up plan, 'cos on other nights they might be.

But they're not going to opt out of introducing these things so the youth can drink illegally :D

you shouldn't have to prove anything until you do something wrong or until you're suspected of doing something wrong. Now, it is usually not so that the police goes out on the street and ask all passers by for their ID card, because if that were the case I'd move instantly. No joke. Despite this not being the case, I still feel it's too much of a 'diver's licence', only for being allowed to walk outside. For instance, the following could happen (and it does, all the time):


That is an interesting point Nay. The Police in the UK have been heavily criticised for their Stop and Search policy as it normally targets people who fit a particular MO (for example: young, pakistani origin males). Who are we to judge! The UK has had sustained attacks from not only Islamic Fanatists but for many years the IRA (albeit there has been no significant mainland Britain attacks for a while - but there is always a chance!).


What I think is much worse, however, is the new passports that will have fingerprints and DNA data stored on them in the future. I seriously don't know what to do when they introduce that to the passports; I can't refuse getting one! I'm forced into this because I want to be a citizen. I'll never give my DNA or fingerprint though, unless I'm a prime suspect in a case where a confirmation can only be made through those data. What to do, what to do...


The UK have just introduced Biometric Passports and I understand that they will be developing their systems further in the not too distant future to allow for fingerprint/DNA profiling. Furthermore, any adult who does not own a passport and applies for one - will now have to be interviewed at a local passport office. It certainly appears to me that technology is getting very, very advanced and before long, they will probably be having retina scanning at Immigration to confirm that you are who you say you are! But who ultimately pays for it? Why of course - we do!

I'm all for IDs for everyone. It reduces crime and makes identity theft harder IMO.

In venezuela it seems that as soon as you become a landed immigrant you're issued a "cedula", the national ID card. If you're a citizen you're issued one and if you're a foreigner you're issued a different one. Children as young as 9 years old are entitled to one, not sure if any younger. It's just a piece of plastic that says you are who you say you are, nothing else. Now whether it's constitutional or not that remains a subject for the parliaments of each country to decide on, but along the lines that you don't have to prove who you are to anybody if you haven't done anything wrong, also the authorities should have no reason to stop you and ask for it if they don't suspect you. If they do they probably suspect you're in on something or whatever. It plays both ways.
I don't see what the drawbacks of such a system is, unless they're integrated with high tech chips that allow sensors nationwide to detect your presence if you have the card on you. Americans and canadians already have something like an ID system, their driver's licenses. Granted you don't get one until you're old enough to drive, but it's a document that identifies you and authorities will recognize it.

It's just another card. But i also think this is pointless in countries with small populations and low crime.

Wow 2.0! Can I ask - do you have to pay for this? If so - how much and how often? And also - how long has this system been introduced?


The ID card, might reduce some types of crime.
It will do nothing to stop terrorism.
Pushing for ID's, by saying it will prevent terrorism is misleading the public, IMO.


But let's face it JASR - that is how the Government has been 'sexing' it up! The other points you make are basically how I feel. :razz:



Personally I have no objection to carrying an ID card, depending on what data they are intending on holding. You hear varying reports from it just carrying basic identificational information to the more extreme reports of when you last went to the toilet, and what for. Until we are made fully aware of what they intend to keep I think it's hard to make a definitive verdict.



I also don't object to carrying an ID card - what I do object to is how the Government are 'selling' it. My personal opinion is that they are attempting to lull us into a false sense of security - no ID card is going to protect us from some person who has an axe to grind and intend to cause us harm! I know I keep on going about cost and everything :razz: but I do believe I read a report that suggested that the ID card would probably set us back at least £100 (probably what you heard too :razz:) and would have to be renewed every ten years.

I understand that they will probably do a voluntary scheme first - but it won't be long after that, that they will make it compulsory. As for getting away for paying - I doubt it Fen. If they make it compulsory - of course we will have to pay for it - one way or the other. And what with the UK going smoke free and many people deciding to quit - how else are they going to recoup their lost revenue from taxes :razz:

Blimey... aren't I a cynical clock!

I'm gonna keep this as short as possible.

Yes, I want an ID card. I think there are many advantages to them.
No, I don't think they're going to combat terrorism as much as they say. Yes, I agree with my DNA being on these cards, it will stop people being able to pretend they're me. I don't think it's big brother at the end of the day, more information is held about us than we realise and ID cards aren't going to affect that much.

A huge amount of people in the UK are kicking up a stink about this but what we need to remember is that many countries have had them since the dawn of time and they live. What's the harm in carrying around a piece of ID?

Many of you will know that I've lived in Germany before but under the wings of the MOD and we all had to have ID cards. My understanding (Vik please correct me if I'm wrong) is that all citizen's have to carry them too. I still have a visitors pass and I see no harm in carrying it at all and the only time I ever need to show it, is when I enter MOD property. You can be asked at other times to show it too by the german police, like if you're stopped for having a headlight only half working that isn't your fault or only having one fog light in a british car and nearly getting fined :rolleyes:

But in essence, I believe they're a positive thing to carry around.

Oh! I'm late getting into this one!

Yes, Facey - German citizens have to carry their ID cards with them. Mr. Vik's cost about €10, but apparently now they are a little more expensive. I don't have one, and I am not even sure if I should be carrying my passport around with me - I don't take it anywhere, but I'm not scared of getting in trouble if I'm asked for it, even German policemen are not going to throw you in jail for something like that. It might be like drivers' licenses, you have to present them within a week or so at your local police station, but I guess they wouldn't even make someone do that. I should probably find out for sure! Mr. Vik has never been asked to show his ID in a spontaneous stop and search situation - and he's had it about 18 years.

Actually the ID cards here are very useful. No having to present a driver's license plus two pieces of evidence confirming your home address, along with various credit cards etc to get a video rental card here! Mr. Vik also uses his ID card as a passport to travel within the EU - it really is quite useful. Having to carry it around in his wallet is no big deal, he carries other forms of ID which for some reason are not seen as threatening to privacy because it gives us an obvious benefit, such as a credit card etc.

For me, I think if carrying a card has the slightest chance of stopping terrorism, or crime etc, even a tiny tiny 0.1% chance - it's worth it. If you have nothing to hide, blahblah..

HOWEVER!! I do think that the government ought to spend as much time and effort and publicity into setting up a balance to keep it in check. Some kind of central office where people can lodge official complaints which are taken seriously by trained staff in cases where they feel their privacy has been abused. I find this important - I believe in the notion that all authority must be questioned (apart from innocent little forum mods, lmao!) and I think that this would be a much better way of balancing the cost of stricter observation that simply saying 'it might stop terrorism' - which it might, but doesn't actually make it totally ok to play big brother.

I am aware while I am writing this that my thoughts on the subject may be very different were I a 20-something middle eastern male. I can understand why the police stop that section of the public more than say, 90 year old ladies in Tesco's, but it doesn't make the pill any sweeter to swallow if you are included in that demographic section. Maybe the governmant should consider issuing bungee string for those people to attach to their cards :sad: Another reason for an office of investigation.

I think this topic has become a little slow, so I thought I'd inset another, related subject here, one which has already come up in other's post. Big Brother. I read yesterday that two schoolgirls were caught on their school's CCTV, kissing. The principal saw this, and reported the girls to their parents, who have since taken them out of school. The report can be seen here. (http://www.truthera.com/2007/04/28/kiss-caught-on-camera-raises-issues-of-big-brother-surveillance/) Crazy, huh? Again, I can cope with losing certain liberties - these liberties are fairly imaginary in the first place - but balance it up for us, please, and give us a chance to protect ourselves if it goes sour!

i think ID cards are a good idea, we all have to have them around my college (university) campus. but that just makes it harder for outsiders to get in which in the long term makes it safer for us, after 7pm They close the dorm halls to anyone without an ID card, yes it does get frustrating because i have a class that ends at 8:00 on tuesday nights, but i know it's just there so we can be safe