Debate Thread - iSketch Forum

Nay

24-06-2007, 06:42 PM

Haha, yeah, it's funny. My mum doesn't get more now she's working than when she used to be on benefits. I mean, I'm really glad it's there 'cos for some people it can be really difficult to get a new job immediately. My mum for instance; they are usually looking for younger people --though my mum's probably not going to retire within 8 years, and that seems to be quite a long time for me, and she has loads of work experience -- and there's only a limited amount of possible jobs some years. Others first need re-schooling and all kinds of courses before they can get a new job and that needs to be paid for as well. Believe me, it's not cheap. Sometimes you're forced to find a job outside your field though, for medical reasons for instance.

Where I live, they've made it harder to sit on your arse and let the money flow in though. You are obliged to apply at 4 places every month and you have to be able to prove it. If you really can't find anything in a year and a half (I think), they start offering you courses so you can take other jobs as well. If all fails, they'll let you do volunteering haha. I know someone who now works as a receptionist at a local hospital (which is an unpaid job), because he wanted to sit on his arse instead of finding a new job.

And you can't really say to lower the amount of money they get, 'cos it really isn't too much. Maybe instead the minimum wages for the ones that do work should be raised. But that will mean that the employers will have to get the money from somewhere to pay for it all, which in the end will be the consumer again. But in a way that's good; the ones that consume most are the rich people.

Sarah

25-06-2007, 11:08 AM

This is a completely different thing but it's to do with the government and money..

I'm 20, and I have a part time job. I do exactly the same work as everyone else at that workplace, but because I'm not 21 I earn a great deal less money than those that are 21. Why? I do exactly the same job, spend as much time there as some people, but because of a 6 month difference in my age I'm not entitled to as much money. It's not as though it's a very small difference either. I just don't understand that. I mean, it's not as though I'm under 18 either. I'm 20! Argh, it just really winds me up.

Buffers

25-06-2007, 11:39 AM

I think that's really unfair too Sarah. I don't know where they plucked 21 from... it has no relevance whatsoever. The age should be 18 if anything, but then I don't agree with lowering wages because of age at all. My first job paid £3.20 an hour.... and it sucked. lol

bunE

25-06-2007, 12:45 PM

I do think that unfair Sarah. My stepson works in primark and works damn harder than some of his lazy colleagues but as he is only 17 he gets loads less than them an hour!
You wanna know what I would like to discuss?? Its very different from what you are all currently discussing so ignore me if you still wanna talk about that k?
What annoys me is call centres, mostly the ones you have to ring to sort out a problem say with your cable bill. You get passed from pillar to post with "press 5 to kill yourself or 4 to be murdered" before you even speak to a human being. Then you have to explain your whole problem even though you spoke to somebody else in the same dept only yesterday and they should have put it on the computer. then they cant help you and you hold for ages waiting for someone else, then again you get passed around only to end up back at the original dept you spoke to. GRRRRRRRRRRRR it makes me mad!!

wild cherry

25-06-2007, 12:57 PM

Oh hell, dont get me started on call centres.
I blooming hate them, the women sound bored and up there own asses, they dont know there elbow from there toes, and they take ages to do anything.
My bank call centre fook everyting up all the time, and i admit i do scream down the phone to them, i hate that they try to make me feel like im in the wrong, when its in fact them who,s fooked up.
I say retrain them every few months to keep them on the ball, and also make them aware that we are humans not an annoying voice on the end of the phone GGGGGGGGGGrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr cheeers bune im now fumeing:embarrassed:

bunE

25-06-2007, 01:15 PM

:rolleyes:sorry cherry

wild cherry

25-06-2007, 03:37 PM

:rolleyes:sorry cherry
Hey babe its ok its good for me to rant lol, saves mr cherry getting an ear full.
Its not your fault i got angry over this topic lol, i was joking with the verse i wrote to be honest lol.
Anyway hun thanks for bringing up call centres i enjoyes it very much xxxxx

Nay

25-06-2007, 05:31 PM

I heard that if you keep pressing 0 in those menus, you'll get to a person quickly in most cases. 0 is never an option, so I guess it's some kind of short cut.
Never had to try it but if you ever feel annoyed by the many options, give it a try and tell me if it works!

bunE

25-06-2007, 07:12 PM

:mad:I just tried it and was told "thank you for your call goodbye "

wild cherry

25-06-2007, 08:01 PM

:mad:I just tried it and was told "thank you for your call goodbye "
LMFAO, good on ya rabbit hahahhahhahaahah:razz:

Bad_MaNneR$

26-06-2007, 05:24 AM

Surely that’s the same the whole world over? I mean just because you are young and paid a minimal wage, doesn’t mean you are the only one who gets stiffed by lazy workmates. I earn $240K per annum – but they only pay me $64K. There are many lazy sods who get paid $64K – but who only actually earn about half what they are paid.

The whole thing is, with variable pay-scales it’s a system of recognition for longevity and underpinning experience. The 16 year old who starts work as an apprentice carpenter is generally not going to be able to churn out as much (to the same standard) as a 30 year old who by now has 14 years experience on his side. There may be exceptions – but that is just it - they are exceptions and not the rule.

If it’s not fair that a 20 year old gets paid less than a 21 year old – let’s just extrapolate that out a little. Let’s say for instance I own a carpentry business and you come to work for me as an apprentice carpenter. I pay my tradesmen $40K pa and then I automatically start to pay you $40K pa – sure you both do the same job – but do you think the tradesmen would be happy that I pay them, experienced long term employees the same amount of money as an inexperienced newbie? One whom we have no idea about performance, conduct, ability, reliability? That’s one reason why there are variable pay systems. Besides that there are superannuation issues to consider, along with age based deduction limits. Just go talk to any union delegate and ask them why the junior staff get lower pay rates than the experienced staff.

21 is an arbitrary age in respect of pay scales. It stems back to legal ages to drink, drive, vote etc. Personally, I think that until you are 21 you really still have no idea (I know I didn’t and nor did most of my mates). Having a teenage son who in just over 2 months at age 16 can be given a learner’s permit to drive a car is scary. Having seen the effects of youth and inexperience on the roads and ending up with them in Hospital Emergency Departments, all governments world wide should combine to re-raise the legal age for driving to 21. As a matter of fact they should also stop pandering to the whiny arsed “Generation Y”, about whom everything is “Me. Me. ME” and bump it back to what we Generation X-ers have been subjected to. Sh♥t it hasn’t hurt us. Kick the legal age for everything (well maybe not shagging) back to 21.

21 to drink
21 to smoke
21 to drive
21 to vote
21 to get a credit card

COROLLARY:
By the standards of “fairness” emerging in this thread – all 4 year olds should automatically be given mobile phones, be allowed to drive cars, ride motorcycles, drink alcohol, smoke cigarettes and vote in the general elections.

/me sits safe in the hopes that regardless of what anyone chooses to argue – the systems that are in place at the present – especially variable pay scales will not change unless the democratic societies we all choose to live in are converted to communism.

CALL CENTRES - Rabbitrun – If MY call is SO IMPORTANT to them – How come they haven’t employed more staff to answer my call properly?

/me goes over and sits on the right side of the naughty step with Genghis Khan.

Nay

26-06-2007, 10:40 AM

:mad:I just tried it and was told "thank you for your call goodbye "

Hahaha!

I didn't know that, honest!

BM: 21 is too old. For a driver's licence al right, maybe.
Where I am, it's 16 for drinks (but for beverages containing > 15% alcohol it's 18). 18 for all the rest too. Saying 'people below 21 still have no clue' -- which I obviously think is rubbish, as a member of the age group -- does not mean you have to restrict everything. Once again, maybe except for the driver's licences because there's a bigger chance of harming others when you're on the road 'and have no clue'.

Sarah

26-06-2007, 01:32 PM

Hmm.. I don't mean to be rude at all but in a reply to your post BadManners I do have a couple of things to say.

You say that until people are 21 they have absolutely no clue. What makes 21 so special? Does that mean that 6 or 4 or 2 months before your 21st birthday you have no idea, but as soon as you reach that 21st you know things? I don't think that's true. Heck, I could argue that there are some adults out there over 21 that still don't know anything. Some people are more mature than others and sometimes I don't think an age can be placed on maturity as easily as that. I know this may seem slightly biased because I fit into that age group, but I'm nearer 21 than 20 and I don't consider myself to have 'no idea' as you put it. I work, I study and I put a heck of a lot of effort in. I could just sit at home and not do a single thing and scrounge money off everyone else. But I don't. I work blummin' hard. As do you and billions of other people.

As for the job part of it, you used the examples of apprenticeship. I can understand this to an extent but in my situation this doesn't really come into it as it's not that kind of job. There are no apprentices there. The people with more experience, as in the managers who have managed companies before, obviously do get paid more. But what I'm arguing is that the regular staff, who all started the job at exactly the same time when the place opened a year ago with no experience in working in this area of work, are all paid differently, when there are no 'experience boundaries' to differentiate pay. We were all new to the job, having never done it before, everyone learning and training together. Although I do understand where you are coming from with the idea. :)

This all probably makes no sense whatsoever. Haha!

Bad_MaNneR$

26-06-2007, 02:15 PM

Nay - wait until you are 30 and have a tribe of little Nay's following you around - you may have different views - hell I knew everything at 17 and was a "man of the world" or so I thought. Glad you agree on the 21 for drivers licences - I think they should also make it mandatory to hold a first aid certificate before applying for a Learner's Permit too.

Hmm.. I don't mean to be rude at all but in a reply to your post BadManners I do have a couple of things to say.
Hey it's a debate thread - that's why you can say what you like within reason - I'm big and ugly enough to know that it's not personal - just don't call me any rude names and you will be fine:twisted:

You say that until people are 21 they have absolutely no clue. What makes 21 so special? Does that mean that 6 or 4 or 2 months before your 21st birthday you have no idea, but as soon as you reach that 21st you know things? I don't think that's true.

Nothing special about 21 really - it’s arbitrary (I could have said 25 or 30) I think the actuality (going back to the original "WHY?") is that it dates back to colloquial “coming of age” as different to the latter day "age of majority". It’s traditional stuff and we can't muck about with tradition - it upsets the whole balance of life. Did you also know that on your 21st birthday you magically get given the clues to life? However you still don’t understand them until you are much older. I think that happens when you turn 40 – or maybe 50 – haven’t got that far yet. (OK so I made that bit up).

Age hasn’t been the only discriminatory factor in history though. Take the USA. It wasn't until the passage of the Equal Pay Act in 1963 that it became illegal to pay women lower rates for the same job strictly on the basis of their sex. Problem is there is still worldwide wage inequity for women. At least age based inequity balances out as you get older (you have no choice in it really – even Oil of Ulay or Olay or Ulan can’t stop the ageing process). But in many places there are men and women working side by side and being paid different scales for doing the same amount of work, solely based on gender.

Heck, I could argue that there are some adults out there over 21 that still don't know anything. Some people are more mature than others and sometimes I don't think an age can be placed on maturity as easily as that. I know this may seem slightly biased because I fit into that age group, but I'm nearer 21 than 20 and I don't consider myself to have 'no idea' as you put it. I work, I study and I put a heck of a lot of effort in. I could just sit at home and not do a single thing and scrounge money off everyone else. But I don't. I work blummin' hard. As do you and billions of other people.

Very true – I see it a lot in my job (immaturity) hell we sacked a 45 year old recently for doing “immature schoolkid stuff” highly improper and not suitable in the workplace. And no it wasn’t a HE is was a SHE – hence schoolkid stuff not schoolboy stuff.

As for the job part of it, you used the examples of apprenticeship. I can understand this to an extent but in my situation this doesn't really come into it as it's not that kind of job. There are no apprentices there. The people with more experience, as in the managers who have managed companies before, obviously do get paid more. But what I'm arguing is that the regular staff, who all started the job at exactly the same time when the place opened a year ago with no experience in working in this area of work, are all paid differently, when there are no 'experience boundaries' to differentiate pay. We were all new to the job, having never done it before, everyone learning and training together. Although I do understand where you are coming from with the idea. :)

This all probably makes no sense whatsoever. Haha!

Makes perfect sense. Thing is, if you don’t like the pay inequity – you need to choose the type job that doesn’t discriminate (albeit lawfully) on an age basis – like oh I don’t know – any of the computer industries – such as game development – then you can name your price at any age.

Nay

26-06-2007, 02:51 PM

Sarah

26-06-2007, 03:07 PM

I wish I could choose another job, but that'll have to wait until I've done my degree I'm afraid. Part time jobs here are pretty much all the same and it's hard to find one that doesn't discriminate. But hey, it's money and I'm earning some at the end of the day so I suppose I shouldn't be too down hearted! Haha.

Going back to the whole "21" debate though, now that I've thought about it a bit more, I do see what you mean. I'm about to start my last year of uni so in August next year I'm going to be out in the real world and that's only just hit me recently and it's quite a scary idea! :|

Bad_MaNneR$

26-06-2007, 11:04 PM

I once ran the NSW Government's Firearms Hotline and specifically chose staff that:

a) Spoke English without any strange accents
b) Had exceptional customer service skills
c) Had no preconceived ideas about the information they were to answer questions on
d) Were very fast learners
e) Knew how to get the information they needed in a hurry

Of course I developed a hell of a lot of grey hairs and was working 16 hour days, but at least the customers ended up happy, because they got intelligent responses, rather than the usual garbage. They were an awesome team and we still catch up for drink or twelve from time to time.

Having experienced outsourcing our calls for some time to one of those agencies - we were getting 1000 hits a minute on our PABX - I can say it's my experience that most of the people that work in call centres seem to do so beause they are either overseas backpackers looking for a fast buck or locals who can't get real jobs and have no qualifications to do so. Sure they are humans - but when you go into that line of work - expect to be shouted at. Lets not chill - it's a debate thread - and who ever heard of a chilled debate??????

Cunny_Funt

26-06-2007, 11:34 PM

O..M..G call centers are a right pain, in ones royal butt. I wouldn't mind so much if they WOULD LISTEN to WHAT I was trying to BLINKING WELL SAY. So manyyyyyy times i have wanted to rip my own toe nails out, as it goes in one ear, and out the other. it is so blooming frustrating. its like AARRGGGHHHH Purleaseeeeeeeee just give me someone that will listen to what it is, i am having a problem with. Gonna sign off this post, as i will ramble on and on and end up in bad form :sad:

/me loves a good debate, let me know when it starts :twisted:

Bad_MaNneR$

27-06-2007, 02:29 AM

................. Gonna sign off this post, as i will ramble on and on and end up in bad form :sad:

* Cunny_Funt;87494 loves a good debate, let me know when it starts :twisted:

What's wrong with "Bad" form?:twisted:

Vik

27-06-2007, 02:25 PM

I think a large part of the problem is that the call centres are often so noisy anyway, the person who is being called can't hear the caller in the first place. Put a regional accent into that and there's no chance. I love hearing different accents, but if someone has a particularly strong one which is not the same accent as the people they call on a regular basis, then they do need to make an effort to moderate that accent. It just makes sense all round - it aids communication and that's what the company is interested in.

It's annoying when people phone up trying to sell something, but I've never had a problem with saying 'thank you for your call, but I'm not interested.' That's it, temporary incovienience over, and no blood pressure has been raised.

EDIT: If they are rude to you like in Buffer's example above, then I'd take every action I could to make sure that person is not employed for much longer. But generally I find them polite.

When it's a company who you call and who you expect to be able to help you however, it IS infuriating when you speak with unprofessional people. I find it solves nothing to lose your temper though and I try to remember you I'm speaking to another human being, no matter how moronic they seem to be, lol. If it's a big problem, inform the company by way of complaint. If you shout, the company will assume you are in the wrong, and will take no action.

MsNerdinator

27-06-2007, 02:42 PM

I have done... and do, and will again. Call centres cannot possibly be compared to jobs where the staff are within reach of the public. It also depends what the call centre is for... if it's a sales one, pestering people at home, or 'cold calling' as they like to call it, I think they deserve all they get. I personally wouldn't abuse them, I usually just 'tut' and hang up, but I have been abused by call centre staff. I never thought that way at all until I was called from an untraceable number to be told to buy a mobile phone. When I politely asked that my number be taken from the list and that they not call again, the operator responded by asking if I 'had a juicy *****'. Who was abused on that occasion? I was so stunned I hung up and took steps to prevent such calls reaching me again.

:0! The cheek..
We get similar calls over here too. We're on a mobile list that keeps going round a few different companies and has reached India. They keep calling us at ridiculous times of the day, and then when we say we're not interested, or we ask them to take us off their list and not call us ever again, they give us attitude for it. It got so bad at one point that we started receving an average of 5 calls per day! One time the line was really bad, and I said "sorry, but I can't hear you properly". And the man replied "excuse me, ma'am, but don't you dare lie to me! You cow!". And course, he heard the dial tone after that. XD

Ches

27-06-2007, 02:44 PM

:0! The cheek..
We get similar calls over here too. We're on a mobile list that keeps going round a few different companies and has reached India. They keep calling us at ridiculous times of the day, and then when we say we're not interested, or we ask them to take us off their list and not call us ever again, they give us attitude for it. It got so bad at one point that we started receving an average of 5 calls per day! One time the line was really bad, and I said "sorry, but I can't hear you properly". And the man replied "excuse me, ma'am, but don't you dare lie to me! You cow!". And course, he heard the dial tone after that. XD

3 o'clock in the morning to see if I want a new mobile phone.... :mad:

Sarah

27-06-2007, 04:05 PM

I think if you work in a call centre a certain amount of... anger from the other end should be expected. I'm NOT saying they deserve it, but when someone has a problem or anything, the person on the end of the phone is sometimes their only source to contact and if they are angry, the customer does sometimes see them as someone to rant to. I remember when the shop I worked for closed down, and for some reason the company decided to disallow the use of gift vouchers that people had bought. So I had all these customers who had been given vouchers for Christmas unable to spend them and unable to get any money back for them. Hence, because they couldn't contact anyone higher they saw the staff in the shop as someone to have a go at (and they were entitled to be angry). Some people got pretty nasty with me and there was even violence in another store. I'm not saying I liked being shouted at when it wasn't my problem, but I expected it because at the end of the day the customer has the right to complain. I just don't like people raising their voice at me when I had done nothing and was on the point of losing my job. But hey, the customer comes first, right? Haha.

Vik

27-06-2007, 05:05 PM

I'm going to get crucified for this I know - but I must admit I have worked in a call centre.

I was 16 and it was my first job and I lasted 3 shifts of 3 hours each before I had to quit. It was a double glazing company, and I was sooo polite to people - always apologised for phoning them and said goodbye right away when they made it clear they weren't interested - which landed me in a whole heap of trouble from a pushy boss who told me I had to ask them why they didn't want windows, and why weren't they interested etc. I hated the idea of that, and didn't do it, lol.

Most people were friendly, a few were ridiculosly angry and swore at me before I had a chance to finish saying what I had to say. One old chap was so nice, I think he was lonely and wanted someone to chat to, so I talked to him for about 20 mins, lol. I just couldn't carry on doing the job though. Not just because of the nasty customers (yes, I'm a sensitive soul, lol) but also because of the bosses. I cried after every shift! (how shameful is that?? lol)

I think people who work there a long time would get immune to the abuse and those are probably the ones who end up really pushy and rude. For the rest I'd say again to just politely say 'no thanks' and hang up. It's the quickest and least stressful way of dealing with it, and you don't feel mad for ages afterwards. If not for theirs, do it for your own stress levels! By the way, for my company there was a freephone number you could ring to get your name taken off the list. Maybe other companies do the same.

The whole thing makes me wonder - is this selling tactic actually cost effective? Do people really buy things from cold callers? I'd love to see the figures. From the one or two pushy cold callers I've had to deal with, I'd say that were I ever in need of whatever product or service they had to offer, their company would be the last I'd go to, simply because of those staff memebers.

Nay

27-06-2007, 06:45 PM

A man called me last Saturday. He had a little questionnaire about my use of telephone, television and internet. We had a laugh at how unclear his questions were. Some times we both had no clue what it was about. Probably the first time he got to that point because nobody ever cooperates. But I was dressing up, had a good long sleep and felt like talking. Ended up being half an hour. We both laughed again when he asked if he could have my email address for further questionnaires.

His company would sell it to companies who can benefit from that information.

I bet I was useful too, 'cos I barely watch tv, mostly call via normal phones and use a basic internet connection.

Nay

27-06-2007, 10:17 PM

Believe it or not, but this whole thing has made me want to work in a call-centre!

Buffers: I didn't get the impression that Pagan was trying to make some trouble (she put too much effort into making good points for that). Just some clumsy examples maybe.

Bad_MaNneR$

27-06-2007, 10:34 PM

If people ever struggle with my accent I would rather they let me know, than just smile nodding at me, saying yes really yeah.

/me nods at jewels and says "Really? Yeah."

2.0

27-06-2007, 10:37 PM

Ladies and gentlemen, just a quick reminder to keep on topic.

I'll add this. My brother worked at a call centre that was outsourced by dell to do its customer service. He still has the manual. In this manual they show him step by step what to do with angry customers, it became second nature to him to deal with them. The manual doesn't exactly tell them what to do about the angry caller, it just tells them how to draw the information they need in order to help the customer, even if angry and incooperative. He didn't mind the abuse, because he knew that this abuse was aimed at dell, not him.
Then one of my best friends was a telemarketer/phone survey man. They don't care either. As long as they kept their 2 out of 10 of customer response, the company gets paid by the manufacturer of the product or the company that wanted the survey. And they call 80 to 100 people per day. Most people hung up. A few people listened. Every so often someone actually said "sure why not".

Do you really think they care? I have to agree with TF. There's tons of low paying easy jobs out there, if you can't follow procedure and take the heat from an angry person on the phone, then just don't get that job. Now if you're brave enough or just don't care about people calling you names when they don't even know your first name, go right ahead, it's a good $7 an hour, and when you're a student, that goes a loooooong way.

But then again that's their experience, they could be just playing it down, i can't say for sure. I worked the residence cafeteria, that's an entirely different beast, a 4000 student, 3 times daily beast.

TempusFugit

27-06-2007, 10:54 PM

I have ticked and tocked on this subject further and done a bit of research.

Click Here (Page 75 onwards) (http://books.google.com/books?id=IcbGciJHR5sC&pg=PA75&ots=F_z1sKeBhb&dq=statistics+-+call+centre+employees+ages&sig=hZLFXMKvMYJjNTG9XJukIY6ktAw#PPA75,M1)

The above links provides some useful data about the average British call centre worker. I am sure that the statistics are roughly the same for the US and Australia. Of course, this is just a reference point to keep the thread as on topic as possible and in homage to our wonderful green hottie for saying that he agrees with me :razz:

Edit: More Food for Thought (http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0%2C3604%2C1141878%2C00.html)

The above link goes into the 'abuse' of call centre workers in a little more detail. I think the key point here is that 'some' companies are recognising that they need to change their work practices to ensure that the employee's are trained adequately and that they receive breaks etc.

One woman who ended up getting ill because of the working conditions - left (shock, horror)!

Fender

27-06-2007, 11:34 PM

I think anybody working in the public sector where they are constantly coming into contact with the general public will inevitably encounter rude and/or abusive individuals. This isn’t to say it is acceptable, but it is a fact of life.

You have to remember that many people calling a call centre are doing so to seek assistance with a problem and may have spent days trying to resolve it themselves before resorting to a 50p a minute support line. If they then get through to somebody who doesn’t understand either the problem or the caller (or vice versa) due to linguistic differences it can be infuriating.

I spent nearly ten weeks trying to get a computer company to sort out a problem. When one ‘support’ engineer made a glib comment about it may take that time again before it was looked at I said, though not actually to him but to life in general and with the receiver away from my mouth, “Oh they are taking the <urine>” only for the gentleman to say that if I swore again he would terminate the call. Now, given they had mucked me around for nearly ten weeks already, I think I was remarkably restrained – I think I would have been in the right to give him a mouthful. I didn’t because it would have done no good and put me in the wrong. I chose to take the methodic, legal route and got it dealt with eventually. Some people, however, wouldn’t have thought twice about letting fly and who can blame them?

No, nobody deserves to suffer abuse in the workplace, but you have to be realistic and consider why the customer feels so aggrieved as to resort to it in the first place. If they are abusive without good reason then fine, complain, but if your company has made them loose their rag it’s not their fault.

As to so-called cold callers … BT should install a button on our phones that electrocutes them (mildly if necessary) when you press it. NO, I don’t want a flippin’ mobile phone!:razz:

It's not just call centre workers that suffer btw; shop workers also suffer abuse at times - and they can't hang up on an irate customer. Again, you have to ask first why the customer is being abusive - is it your company's fault and, if so, you are the public face of that company. It may not be pleasant but that's just life.

Sam_I_am

28-06-2007, 01:20 AM

I think anybody working in the public sector where they are constantly coming into contact with the general public will inevitably encounter rude and/or abusive individuals. This isn’t to say it is acceptable, but it is a fact of life.

No, nobody deserves to suffer abuse in the workplace, but you have to be realistic and consider why the customer feels so aggrieved as to resort to it in the first place. If they are abusive without good reason then fine, complain, but if your company has made them loose their rag it’s not their fault.

It's not just call centre workers that suffer btw; shop workers also suffer abuse at times - and they can't hang up on an irate customer. Again, you have to ask first why the customer is being abusive - is it your company's fault and, if so, you are the public face of that company. It may not be pleasant but that's just life.

ok... this may be offtopic, so sorry mods...

This is just like in education. I think I have seen it all. Sometimes teachers will bend over backwards in helping a student succeed only to have irate parents threaten with foul language and lawsuits. It's very frustrating.

I still remember my first year of taching when I gave a study hall student a detention for talking (repeatedly and on-going), only to be accosted by his mother as I was walking home that same day. She even called me a B**** because I was mean to her poor baby (who was 14 at the time! and knew a detention would be coming if he continued). So, here I am 11 years later, going to start my 12th year of teaching in another 1 1/2 months, and I think I have seen it all! You'd be shocked!

Fender

28-06-2007, 02:25 AM

ok... this may be offtopic, so sorry mods...

This is just like in education. I think I have seen it all. Sometimes teachers will bend over backwards in helping a student succeed only to have irate parents threaten with foul language and lawsuits. It's very frustrating.

I still remember my first year of taching when I gave a study hall student a detention for talking (repeatedly and on-going), only to be accosted by his mother as I was walking home that same day. She even called me a B**** because I was mean to her poor baby (who was 14 at the time! and knew a detention would be coming if he continued). So, here I am 11 years later, going to start my 12th year of teaching in another 1 1/2 months, and I think I have seen it all! You'd be shocked!

Ah, but when it comes to children the little darlings can do no wrong in most parent's eyes these days. At the risk of straying off topic slightly - parents letting their kids get away with murder is the cause of a lot of problems with society, in my opinion. A parent being abusive to a teacher isn't acceptable. Teachers have to face abuse from pupils and parents far too often, for which they don't enjoy anywhere near enough support.

When you're employed as the public face of a company I think it's a little different though. If you've got a problem with an appliance, for instance, and the company shows little or no interest in resolving it you're bound to get aggitated. It's not right, getting abusive towards a stranger like that never is, and generally the employee you're venting on has little to no power to get it dealt with, but it's human nature and something that needs to be taken into consideration when accepting the job. Likewise if you're going to be disturbing people, uninvited, by calling then you have to accept that the irritation you're causing is going to cause some to become abusive - you don't know what you're disturbing when you ring :razz:

Facey

28-06-2007, 08:40 AM

Wow, what posts!!!

I think what makes most of us arsey at call-centers is how either 1) They invade our privacy or 2) when you want to call them, they're never there and when you finally come off hold, you get someone who's not helpful at all.

I'm never abusive but I will admit to getting a 'tone of voice' but if you work with the public, you should expect people to not be happy.

Oh and in answer to your question Pagan, yes, I do complain when I can't understand somebody. It's nothing personal to them but it's more directed at the company itself.

/me has one more thing to say...

Where's Pork Scratchings when you need her?! :razz:

Vik

28-06-2007, 11:29 AM

BTW - Your proctologist called - they found your head.

Woah! That was harsh... let's not get into personal insults here, even the jokey ones which I assume this was don't come across too well! Pagan's made some good points and has kept this topic interesting. Sometimes it's good to have our beliefs challenged so we can reassess exactly why we believe what we do.

Nay

28-06-2007, 12:07 PM

re-asses

:biggrin:

(agree with your sentiment entirely though)

Vik

28-06-2007, 12:13 PM

LMAO! Wow, my new favorite typo! I thought it looked kind of wrong when I typed it...

/me hurries off to edit :P

Ches

28-06-2007, 12:50 PM

BTW - Your proctologist called - they found your head.

I know for a fact that I am going to use this line in conversation, but that's neither here nor there. Lets keep this debate going without digs.

And I thought there was no editting allowed in the debate thread? :P

Vik

28-06-2007, 12:52 PM

That was the old debate thread! This is the new one where you can edit to your heart's content.

plzdonttakeareppointoffme!

Bad_MaNneR$

28-06-2007, 02:30 PM

Hang on a minute - I got short cut by Pagans rather snotty - "That wasn't a question for you" comment and responded in kind (except mine was funny - as intended).

I do recall being on a winning debate team at school and being allowed to tell someone to pull their head out of their arse. Which I actually didn't say this time around. Anyway - I was bored with his opinions.

What's the next topic of debate?

How about reality TV?

Is it reality or just a tribe of wombats all seeking their 15 minutes of fame, much to the detriment of decent television programming?

2.0

28-06-2007, 02:42 PM

Is it reality or just a tribe of wombats all seeking their 15 minutes of fame, much to the detriment of decent television programming?

What's your definition of decent programming?

I rarely change the discovery channel. Don't like sappy reality shows, don't watch it. Freedom of choice. Unless you live in belarus or iran or venezuela or something.

Vik

28-06-2007, 03:01 PM

I think the media really set people up to be knocked down. They make being famous seem like the only worthwhile thing to do in life, and tons of lovely people who maybe aren't really cut out for fame end up being ridiculed by millions.

It must be a shock when they realise they have given up their privacy in return for not much at all. It's not true for all the people on those shows. Some are just ready made stars, others manage to keep hold of their self respect, but most really are just tabloid fodder :(

Some reality TV has been really great - but not too popular. The TV makers end up going for what's going to make the headlines, in most cases.

Bad_MaNneR$

28-06-2007, 03:29 PM

What's your definition of decent programming?

I rarely change the discovery channel. Don't like sappy reality shows, don't watch it. Freedom of choice. Unless you live in belarus or iran or venezuela or something.

From that comment - pretty much the same as yours ;o)

Anything BUT the so called reality stuff. Maybe the news - there's some reality - but i rarely get home in time to see it. Unless I'm in it ;o)

Nay

28-06-2007, 03:35 PM

The tv news is just as bad as the shows these days. I'm not asking for the newsreader's opinions, thanks.

I rarely watch tv. Only the occasional film or documentary, and of course detectives and football.

wild cherry

29-06-2007, 12:05 AM

Oh buffers, i couldent have written that any better myself.
Absolutly fantastic and truthfull response there my darling.
Now who has a better debate to hand lets get the debating juices flowing once more:rolleyes:

Cunny_Funt

29-06-2007, 12:37 AM

Nice reply there buffs...O.M.G i remember why don't you.

/me flirts with buffs, cause shes lubbly jubbly

/me wonders what juices cherry is on about :rolleyes: lubs ya really babe xxx

LOVE LINGUS

kisskiss

29-06-2007, 07:45 AM

hmm interesting thread. However I feel it's turning into the equivalent of reality TV. Tearing chunks out of eachother for little reward whilst being goaded on by the general public, entertaining but distasteful. I know debate has heat by its very nature but this thread seems to be getting personal.

/me switches over to another thread where they are showing a documentary about elephants...

Nay

29-06-2007, 09:59 AM

Sorry Buffs, but I think you're looking into things too much here. Can't say you don't have a point at all, but half the things you said were just as unreasonable to Pagan's words.

Buffers

29-06-2007, 10:06 AM

Sorry Buffs, but I think you're looking into things too much here. Can't say you don't have a point at all, but half the things you said were just as unreasonable to Pagan's words.

I merely used the same technique as she did to argue back, therefore demonstrating what she did. She didn't like it...understandably, because it came across as mean, which I'm not, as a rule. However, I think it made my point successfully. Don't apologise for having an opinion though. :biggrin: I hope what I've said here makes my previous posts a bit clearer to you.

Nay

29-06-2007, 10:31 AM

The 'sorry' was not for having an opinion (that'd be the last thing I'd say-haha).
But I see what you mean. Though I think it has the opposite effect: more frustrations instead of improvement

Buffers

29-06-2007, 10:33 AM

The 'sorry' was not for having an opinion (that'd be the last thing I'd say-haha).
But I see what you mean. Though I think it has the opposite effect: more frustrations instead of improvement

Then I should apologise... because that wasn't my intention. :biggrin:

Cunny_Funt

29-06-2007, 11:50 AM

Then I should apologise... because that wasn't my intention. :biggrin:

Why apologise, this is a debate thread after all, and it would be quite boring if we all had the same ideas and thoughts, it actually made it quite interesting reading :biggrin:

We need something else to get out teeth into now

2.0

29-06-2007, 01:33 PM

housemates arnt as hard up as it seems they are.

From watching season after season of mind numbing survivor (hence my current dislike for idiotic reality tv) i had always though that cherry here has said something that is very true.

Much of it is editing.

Timeline editing and just grabbing the right expression at the right time can make or break a reality show. If you put together two shots that could perhaps be completely unrelated to one another, a show director can make it seem like to people on the show have some friction between them by putting the right music or effect in the background and to constantly switch perspective, it's like making a movie. Of course this kinda makes the show a little more interesting. But to tell you the truth in the season finales people that were booted off survivor hardly ever have the friction that the editors meant for us to see, i mean, someone screwed you out of a million dollars, and you're all lovey dovey with them now? C'mon.

Granted, some fights are real, but most fights didn't fit together well, that or players on the survivor on the first 2 seasons are always very incoherent when talking trash about people. And names hardly come up when the trash comes, so it's very convenient, that way you can pin it on anyone. I guess editors have now mastered the art of making it seem like they're fighting, but it's always the same, the show got old for me.

Fender

29-06-2007, 01:58 PM

Before we change subject, a few quick thoughts on reality TV.

With the likes of Big Brother you have to consider the selective editing that takes place. This can paint a character in a very bad light and, in some circumstances, lead to them being greeted by a baying mob upon their removal. Given that Big Brother has been running for years one would hope that anybody considering applying, either for that or any other of its ilk, would have the intelligence to know it could happen. Then again, as with the likes of Charley, some seemingly don’t need selective editing to encourage a baying mob to greet them. On the subject of Big Brother; if they, as it would appear, want to encourage liaisons between housemates why put in somebody like Carole or Lesley (as nice as they may be) when all the men were much younger – who’d want to see that!? :rolleyes:

Is it exploitative? I fail to see how because they all apply of their own free will and nobody holds a gun to their heads (mores the pity looking at ½ those in BB this year). Very few of them go into it for the personal experience. Most are seeking personal gain in one form or another – be it monetary or publicity – and so, just as with anybody else in the media, they have to accept they are fair game. If Endemol were picking people at random from the street, unbeknownst to them, and humiliating them then that would be entirely different.

On the whole I find reality TV to be tedious because it is so formulaic, but then I view all the cookery/gardening/DIY shows with the same disdain – it’s lazy programming devoid of innovation.

On the subject of this thread – it’s great as long as it doesn’t descend into digs at other members, so let’s play nice :smile:

wild cherry

29-06-2007, 09:53 PM

Ok new topic.
What do you all think about school bullys, are we tough enough as teachers, can we do more.
As a mother i can honestly say that the school blame the bullied kids more than the bully,s.
My son was being targeted recently, and he was told to seek out a teacher at the time its happening.
My son is rather a soft touch and very sensitive at times, and finds it hard to walk away from the bullys to go and seek help.
So i went to the school to say this to them, i was then shocked when his teacher shouted at him in front of me saying, MICKEY YOU SHOULD ASK FOR HELP.
I was gobsmacked and i dident mince my words with the teacher.
Thus im now known as a mother who isnt so understanding in school ethics lmfao.
What do our kids do to seek help, how do they stop being bullied.
Ok forum over to you:sad:

Cunny_Funt

30-06-2007, 04:14 AM

Bully can come in many different forms, as i am sure you are all aware off. When i was at school you had to deal with the bullies yourself. I have stood up to bullies, on my first day at High School, they were picking on this girl cause she was rather big and had her in tears. I thought this was awful and i had a go at them. Does that make me worse than them ? I hate bullies with a passion, and I'm sick hearing the same old drivel that they had a bad child hood etc... I didn't have a very memorable child hood, but wont go into that. I didn't turn out as a bully, * waits for the laughter to begin * some people realise yeah i have had it rough, but it will make me a stronger person, if i change it and turn it around. two wrongs don't make a right. You will always be the stronger person for changing the way , that you were maybe treated. Bullies should not be tolerated and given preference over the victims, how degrading is that. Will stop people wanting to speak up about it even more.

Buffers... I think what your daughter's school does is the best way to go, everyone needs a good buddy. Which can also lead to parents having that reassurance. When you leave your child into school they are in the teacher's care, and you expect them to look after your child, the way they wish their own to be looked after

kelly

hope i got this right, I am much better at debating, face to face

Nay

30-06-2007, 09:30 AM

Haha, I hate this 'oh! They must have had a bad childhood' excuse for everything a person does wrong. Guess what? At least half the time it's not that.

Buffers: I think that's such a cute plan. I remember in primary education there was this girl who was always being bullied (for anything really; all of it was nonsense). I was in control of our fish in the patio's pond. One day, I was feeding the fish and getting some of the algae out after school, and she came onto the patio. She asked me if she was really all the things they called her.

From then on, we took care of the fish together.

Actually, one person who wasn't exactly the popular kid in my secondary school is now one of my best friends!

Bullies are just as insecure as the people they bully.

Facey

30-06-2007, 09:45 AM

Haha, I hate this 'oh! They must have had a bad childhood' excuse for everything a person does wrong. Guess what? At least half the time it's not that.
Actually, you have that wrong.
Bullies are just as insecure as the people they bully.
Exactly!! This happens because of how they're treated as children.

As children we are given 'life commands' these could seem to be innocent comments but infact they're ingrained in your subconcious and affect your self-esteem, whether that be in a negative or positive way. Not everyone who's had negative life commands will become bullies though, these self-esteem issues can come out in many different ways. Some, you will not even notice that they are linked. My Dad, for instance, wasn't treated badly but was put down alot and he's not a bully but he does have other issues.

A bully's childhood does affect their insecurities and how they treat other people. They bully for alot of reasons, they feel powerful or better than that person or they're even seeing their own faults in someone else. It's the age old 'when you point a finger, there's three pointing back at you'.

I was very badly bullied as a teenager and was even attacked which lead me to having an emotional breakdown and also gave me physical post-traumatic illnesses. Even 9 years on, I find teenagers around town threatening. However, I know full well that it's not their fault that they're such insecure people. I blame the parents for most cases, not all because these life commnads can come from anybody who you care about. When I was attacked, one of the other girls' mum's said that I should've fought back! Which is never gonna happen, as one of the girls said 'She's soft as sh*t' and she was right.

So, think again before you make such rash comments.

Nay

30-06-2007, 11:58 AM

Actually, I stand by what I said. I did not deny that childhood has an influence on or later lives (doing that would be foolish). All I said is that not everything a person does can be traced back to an event from their childhood.

What mainly made me say that is that it is often used as an excuse for anything -- small things to truly horrific things. And when an event from childhood is a probable explanation, it's still a combination of that and emotional stability, experience with people, environment, etcetera. And before you say: 'Emotional stability also depends on your childhood', yes; but again not entirely. I find it rather 'un-scientific' to use my own experience as an example, but I must say I've changed quite a bit since my childhood when it comes to personality, emotions and all.

And please, don't say most of it is the parents' influence (no, not even 'most'), because you pick up so much more from the people around you -- social norms and values passed on by friends, strangers, teachers, books, etcetera.

Facey

30-06-2007, 12:03 PM

You're welcome to stand by your opinions but you don't seem to have read my post properly.

I did say that life commands do come from others people who's opinons you care about but your parents are you rmain carers and so I stick by what I said too. Don't ask me to not attribute it to parents or change the way 99% of the psychology world think either.

And yes, you can attribute everything to it. Even the minor things. As I said, these commands are linked to things you aren't even aware of.

There are other people who know more about some subjects. We are a varied forum with more personal experiences than anyone realises sometimes.

Nay

30-06-2007, 12:11 PM

I read your post about 4 times. If you'd only read mine, you'd see that I directly replied to how you said that you blame the parents in most cases. I think that you still (despite not saying 'all') put too much emphasis on the parents.

Have you got any proof for that? 'Cos it's quite a bold statement, and it doesn't make sense to me at all. Sure, the foundations for your life are made in your early childhood, but I know from personal experience that you can ... let's say 'redecorate your cellar' quite a bit. You can also add some extensions to your 'house' (and break down old walls, to make the analogy complete). I think the core of your being is a lot more flexible than you say.

bunE

30-06-2007, 12:20 PM

I am a school governer for my local infant school and I have children in nursery, year 2, year 3, year 6 and year 12.

We as a school are very aware that if a school makes the very rash statement "we have no bullying in our school" they are very foolish. What we say is "if we find out about bullying we will deal with it in the strongest way to re-enforce that bullying is wrong. We have zero tolerance on it and deal with the bullies very strongly." However, there are many reasons why people bully others and many ways of doing it. (You even get bullies in Isketch) It is important for all of us (IMO) to make sure when we are dealing with bulllies that we make sure we do not revert to bullying them to try and stop them bullying. Also (again only in my opinion) I feel that often bullies are mostly that way because of their home life, either the way their parents treat them, or the way they see their parents treat others. Peer pressure is also a factor but I was bullied at school and then as I got older some of my friends became bullies and i would not stand for it and stayed away from them and deliberately made freinds with some of their victims. So you dont have to follow the trend!
Its hard as a parent to deal with your child being bullied because the protective animal comes out in us, and its ok if the school deal with it in the correct way. However if you feel that they are not it is best to ask for a copy of their bullying policy (which every school should have) and then ask to speak to the chair of governors about your concerns.
Thanks for reading

Facey

30-06-2007, 12:26 PM

I read your post about 4 times.
Ok, so you just missed some points then.

Have you got any proof for that?
Errrmmm...yes! Through the many people I have counselled and through thr training. Everyone, yes everyone, in my group all had alot to deal with while going through training because they had to deal with life commands they were given by their parents. I also can't dispute what the experts high up say either, they're more experienced than most of us will ever be in this subject.
but I know from personal experience that you can ... 'redecorate your cellar' 'add some extensions to your 'house'
I think the core of your being is a lot more flexible than you say.
You're right, things can be changed but in essence, you're just digging them deeper into your subconcious, they're still there and there will be a time they will pop out. For instance: I know someone who was very badly scalded as a young child (ages have nothing to do with this bit) and he can't rememeber any of the pain he went through however much he tries. about 37 years later, he watches a documentary about someone who was severly burned in a war zone and after watching actual picutre after the accident, he cries and re-lives the pain. The next day and to this day, he can't remember the pain anymore.

This runs so deep that I don't want to get into a huge disagreement about it but I do feel that you're making misinformed comments.

Let's not detract from the bullying discussion and have two running at the same time!! :biggrin:

Nay

30-06-2007, 12:40 PM

Ok, so you just missed some points then.

Obviously I didn't, because I commented on them :rolleyes: If you like discussing that way, I prefer to shut up.

Errrmmm...yes! Through the many people I have counselled and through thr training. Everyone, yes everyone, in my group all had alot to deal with while going through training because they had to deal with life commands they were given by their parents. I also can't dispute what the experts high up say either, they're more experienced than most of us will ever be in this subject.
I was basically asking for research in this area. I know that research in this area is very vague, because it is difficult to test, but maybe you know something I have never heard of. Most of what I know is speculation, and I'm picking the side of what I think is most likely, based on my own experiences.

You're right, things can be changed but in essence, you're just digging them deeper into your subconcious, they're still there and there will be a time they will pop out. For instance: I know someone who was very badly scalded as a young child (ages have nothing to do with this bit) and he can't rememeber any of the pain he went through however much he tries. about 37 years later, he watches a documentary about someone who was severly burned in a war zone and after watching actual picutre after the accident, he cries and re-lives the pain. The next day and to this day, he can't remember the pain anymore.

This runs so deep that I don't want to get into a huge disagreement about it but I do feel that you're making misinformed comments.

Seems like we barely even disagree; I just have the feeling you attribute too much to childhood experiences. It does have an influence -- you can't say I denied that.

But as I said, it's hard to make solid claims (and you did make a few bold ones), because it's extremely difficult to test and prove. It's such a long term process; who knows what has a strong influence on the way? I just disagree with your view that you are 'stuck' in a certain space for life, and that you can only move within that room. I think much more radical changes are possible.

I'll see if I can find an interesting article in the uni library. I'm procrastinating anyway.

MsNerdinator

30-06-2007, 12:42 PM

Oh nice topic! And now you'll get me started. :|
I was bullied throughout the WHOLE of my primary school years. And had the same classmates as I was growing up, there was no escape from them. I found that when I was bullied because of my eyes and general shyness, teachers never did anything about this. I never got the blame for being bullied, thankfully. And I'm sorry that your son did, Cherry. Though I didn't get blamed, teachers never actually did anything to stop the bullies. Ever.

It's something that really winds me up and it does mean a great deal to me. I feel so sorry for those kids who get bullied because I've been there done that and thought about all those little "I wish I could just kill myself" moments. It really is no fun at all. I used to come home, go to the bathroom and just have a good cry. My family were mostly oblivious to that bit, because I used to cover it up well. And because I was shy, I never really used to stick up for myself properly. I felt there was no need to tell teachers because of the times that I did, nothing got done about it.

In answer to Cherry's question, how do kids deal with it? I'd say each child is probably different in how they handle it, based on who they are and how much help they get. I used to cry, and left it at that. But I know of people who used to have very good support from teachers who were able to stop bullies :) Personally? I do feel it matters more on how much support you get in school, and how well teachers are able to pick up on bullies, because sometimes no matter how close you are to your family, you just might not have the courage to tell them that you are being bullied.

Buffs: I really love that idea; the system at your daughter's school! I think that's fantastic! In my last few years of primary school, I had a friend who joined the school, who had one leg shorter than the other, and had a heart condition. She got bullied like hell. The teachers in the classroom made her sit with me. No one liked her or even talked to her much, but I was put in the situation where I had to take care of her, and support her. And we ended up being a "pair". No support from other classmates. It makes me sad thinking about it now, because that friend of mine passed away when we were 15, and.. I guess I kinda wished that teachers did more to have her integrate with other class members.

I've triggered myself off. Nice posts so far, you lot.

Facey

30-06-2007, 12:53 PM

I was basically asking for research in this area. I know that research in this area is very vague, because it is difficult to test,
I do have papers and books but not to hand, I'll dig them out for you if you want.
But as I said, it's hard to make solid claims (and you did make a few bold ones), because it's extremely difficult to test and prove.
I disagree that they're difficult to test. You just 'know' when there's something there and can always trace back to it eventually (not the parental life commands, I mean issues in general). During therapy sessions, the therapist can only act on something if that person reveals it themselves but instinct kicks-in pretty soon on as to what to root of issues are to alot of problems. But testing and research results can already be shown by experiences as therepists. I've given a few case studies (using the term loosly) already that are linked to what I've said.

You could call my statements bold, I don't see them as being bold though but then I deal with them day-to-day and that takes the edge off it I guess.
Seems like we barely even disagree.
Let's leave it at that then :smile: There's no point in having chips on shoulders for the sake of it.

wild cherry

30-06-2007, 12:57 PM

Awww miss nerd how disgusting was your primary school years hun.
I think like anything else these days it comes down to just this, its a job they earn money as teachers and thats all they care about, the wage packet that goes with being a teacher.
Where are the people who used to put there hearts and souls in to teaching, strict guidlines and people dedicated to teaching flew out the window dident they, like everything else in this country its slap dash and not properly managed, and the kids in todays schools take the brunt.
How many more images and stories will go on the news and in magazines of kids takeing there lives over being bullied.
I say we toughen up, have security gaurds patrolling school playgrounds and halls if needs be, thus creating more jobs while combatting bulling to.
I will never let any of my children go through hell in the name of education, so far ive been very lucky the three eldest havent been victims, its only my youngest child whos currently 10.
He will start secondary school next september, and in this next comeing year i will make it my lifes work to encourage him to speak out and not bottle it all up, i cannot have him going through hell no way

MsNerdinator

30-06-2007, 01:23 PM

Awww miss nerd how disgusting was your primary school years hun.
Yeah, I'm pretty appalled at the school that I used to go to. I cannot begin to explain how much bitterness I have in my heart/head towards them. That said...

I think like anything else these days it comes down to just this, its a job they earn money as teachers and thats all they care about, the wage packet that goes with being a teacher.
Where are the people who used to put there hearts and souls in to teaching, strict guidlines and people dedicated to teaching flew out the window dident they,

... There was ONE Scottish substitute teacher that joined my primary school for two weeks when I was... 8 years old. She was the ONLY person that ever picked up on the degree of how much I got bullied, and the effects it was having on my self esteem. In those two weeks, she used to joke around with me in the classroom in front of other children, saying "no, such and such, don't be going outside and bullying the boys, okay?", just to make me laugh, and have the other kids see the attention I was getting. She stuck up for me when I got bullied at times, without me needing to say it. She was the sort that just picked up on it. I remember one day outside the classroom, one of the boys in my class pushed me to the ground and punched me in the stomach. She saw it, came running and gave him hell of it, heh. And took it further with the headteacher and his parents.

It does make me sad that other teachers didn't give a monkeys, and then this sub teacher comes along and starts helping, but goes after two weeks. But she gave me a lot of courage in those two weeks, and the fact that I'm 23 and still remember the things she said when I was 8, only shows how much of a difference she made in those few weeks. She is the only person that I remember helping me in any sort of way.

Wish all teachers could have that same motivation, and give out the same sort of help. Also, I've worked in 3 primary schools, voluntarily to gain experience. In one of the schools that I visited, there was a little boy with crossed eyes who was getting bulllied. Teachers, again.. didn't pick up on it, or rather didn't do much to help him out. Kids would go off and play and have him strolling around on his own, that really wound me up. So.. I tried to at least help. And I made the teacher aware of my own personal experiences and sat down and had a long conversation with her about this child. And while I was there, I managed to get a few people to play with him :) Not to sound big headed, but it was nice to make a change. Even if it was a small one. He hugged me tight and thanked me when I left the school.

I really wish teachers (generally) would pay more attention to what happens outside the classroom, as that is usually where most of the bullying occurs.

tasha

30-06-2007, 02:09 PM

As to bullying... a lot of schools like to pretend bullying doesn't go on there... it's everywhere though, sadly. My daughter's school has a 'buddy system' wherein some children volunteer to be 'buddies' for other children who are lonely, isolated, or being bullied. They even have a 'Buddy bus stop' where children can go and wait for buddies. I think it's a lovely system... any thoughts?
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We had a 'Buddy bus stop' at our primary school.
It did not work. At all.

It wasn't so much for if you were being bullied, but just if 'no-one would play with you' at break or lunch.
You were supposed to go and stand by it, and one of the students on the school council was supposed to ask you to play with them for the rest of the break.
And magically you'd all become best friends.
Not.

Firstly it didn't work because they made the school councillors be the people that had to respond to it, and there were about 12 of them, so that didn't work. It wasn't like "Oh, anyone can go & help them," it was just the school councillors.

Plus by going and standing there in the first place, you were, to be honest, making yourself stand out and look a bit of a loser.
I'm not trying to be harsh with this or anything, it's just the way it was.
Pointing out to the rest of the school that you have no friends is not a good way to make more.
It'd be better if everyone had the courage to actually try and join in, not just stand by a little cardboard sign with "Buddy bus stop" scrawled on it, and waiting for someone to come & play with you. Unfortunately it's not like that, & most people don't have the confidence to just approach new people.
Which is completely fair enough, particularly as you get older. Once everyone has friendship groups, you can't just get up and make new friends (which seems to be the advice of a lot of teen magazines, btw) because it is basically impossible to just stand up and say "Sorry, don't like you anymore, I'm going to make friends with them instead."
It doesn't work like that.

So the Buddy bus stop was a good idea in theory, but just not practical.

Buffers

30-06-2007, 02:15 PM

Thanks for that Tasha... I understand how it is now. I did think some of the things you've referred to might happen and I'm glad you clarified it for me. Looks good if you're an adult... sucks a bit if you're a kid, and even worse if you're a bullied kid.

What is the motivation for bullying though? Often times when someone is bullied... there's nothing wrong with them. It's stated often that the primary motivation behind bullying is jealousy, whether the bully realises this or not. Does anyone think this is true? Or do other factors come into it.... such as financial status, race, and religion? Or are these things just excuses to vent envy?

Facey

30-06-2007, 02:19 PM

Very good questions Buffs. When I was bullied the worst it was because I was from the south, well had a southern accent, and I was in a northern school but coming to think of it, there was another girl who moved up from Surrey and she was in the with gang so maybe it was because I didn't fit into their group. I admit I didn't, I come from a middle class background and they were from lower and I always wonder if it was because I was middle or if that's just what they picked on.

tasha

30-06-2007, 02:28 PM

Thanks for that Tasha... I understand how it is now. I did think some of the things you've referred to might happen and I'm glad you clarified it for me. Looks good if you're an adult... sucks a bit if you're a kid, and even worse if you're a bullied kid.
I'm the child's perspective in this thread then am I? :P

With regards to why it happens...

People always say it's because bullies have low self-esteem.

I don't get that. I think most of the time they just think it's funny.

Last year I was getting sort of picked on by a couple of girls in my class (one of whom used to be my best friend). What they were doing was basically nothing at all - they were flicking bits of paper & sequins into my hair every time we had a particular lesson. They only did it because they got bored & thought it was entertaining.
It went on for maybe a month, and was really really getting me down.
At the time I still got on okay with the girl who was my best friend before - we used to walk home from the bus stop together etc, but just weren't particularly close anymore.
I got so upset & pissed off about it, even though I know what they were doing wasn't a personal attack or anything, it was just something to entertain them. I told another friend about it, who tried to be sympathetic, but I think she thought I was just pathetic, which is fair enough, because it sounds like a pretty pathetic thing to get upset about.

One lesson the teacher noticed what was going on, and warned them about it, but it didn't stop and the teacher didn't do anything else about it.

So in the end, I just rang up this girl and said to her "Look, it really annoys me when you chuck stuff at me, can you stop doing it?" And she said, Okay, she'd tell the other girl.
I spoke to her on msn later, and said "Thanks, it really annoyed me."
And her reply was "Sri, we just think it's rele funny."
That was that though.
They left me alone after that.
I'm pretty shocked that I stood up to her - it's completely unlike me to do anything that confident - I guess it was probably because we were friends before though. I wouldn't have stood up to the other girl, thinking about it.

So yeah, in that instance, I think it's just because they were looking for entertainment, and I happened to be there.
I'm not so sure about the low self-esteem thing, it doesn't seem to add up.

wild cherry

30-06-2007, 02:45 PM

Reasons for the bullys to bully, thats a tough one buffs.
I d say because they are trying to look hard in school in front of other students, to make themselves popular and tough.
Then of course who would want to bully them, other reasons i really dont know, the one i stated is the one ive most seen happening, kids acting the big i am to cover the fact that they are little scared kids themselves.

Facey

30-06-2007, 03:21 PM

Nay

30-06-2007, 03:21 PM

We had a 'Buddy bus stop' at our primary school.
It did not work. At all.

It wasn't so much for if you were being bullied, but just if 'no-one would play with you' at break or lunch.
You were supposed to go and stand by it, and one of the students on the school council was supposed to ask you to play with them for the rest of the break.
And magically you'd all become best friends.
Not.

(...)

So the Buddy bus stop was a good idea in theory, but just not practical.

True, if it works like that, it won't work. Doesn't mean that the underlying idea is also rubbish; only the execution is. There are plenty of kids that are neither bullies or the bully's victim (bullee? haha) that actually don't mind being around the people that are being put down, but won't get up to do so because they are either afraid to become a victim themselves or are simply too shy. This is where the school could come in. In my school, such 'neutral' kids were put together with the 'victims'; you know, working together, sitting next to each other in class... This usually works at least a bit.

Thing with kids is that they can change around quite quickly. But then again, the school isn't fully responsible for everything. The kids themselves also have to do something about it. It's their life after all. You can teach and assist all you want, in the end they have to do it themselves. I think it's a mistake to shelter and protect the ones that have trouble with bullies. That'll only further separate them. But it's true that teachers should keep an eye out and punish the bullies. They need to know that what they do isn't good. If they aren't punished, they get an internal reward (which I will discuss below), and will continue their behaviour.

People always say it's because bullies have low self-esteem.

I don't get that. I think most of the time they just think it's funny.
(...)
So yeah, in that instance, I think it's just because they were looking for entertainment, and I happened to be there.
I'm not so sure about the low self-esteem thing, it doesn't seem to add up.

By making fun of you they put themselves in a position of power. If you need that to feel good about yourself, you could say you have a lack of self-esteem.

There are a million things you can do if you're bored; it's the option you pick that can tell something. You can go set things on fire or go out shoplifting if you like trying to escape danger, you can do extreme sports or games if you're a thrill seeker, you can be caring to others or you can put others down. All will get you, depending on the person, an internal reward (I won't go too much into that, but it's stuff in your brain, chemicals that are released, that'll make you feel good). If you get punished for your behaviour, you'll feel bad and you may stop doing so if the negative feeling outweighs the positive feelings you get from the behaviour.

But if they aren't stopped and punished and their friends laugh at them and regard them better for it... Maybe you can make use of this and somehow turn the situation into ridiculing them which will make their friends turn against them (--> 'punishment'--> bad feelings)? Not as easily done in practice, I admit.

It's not that they actually think all these things when they throw things at you, but the brain's a complex bugger :P

Nay

30-06-2007, 03:31 PM

As there seems to be alot of people who were bullied at school here and I'm shocked by that! Is there anyone or do you know anyone who is a reformed bully? I think it would be interesting to hear how they felt about it.

I did have some bullies for friends, but I'd usually make sure they wouldn't be too mean... For some odd reason they never turned against me. In fact, if I ever got in trouble I had a lot of people to back me up. Well, that was in primary education.

Once it got to secondary education they somehow stopped bullying and getting into a fight meant I had to sort it out alone :P

One of them actually turned out to be a two-faced person. If were alone with him, he'd be a nice guy, but in a group he'd make fun of you again. That did annoy me, and another mutual friend agreed with me. At one point we got into a pretty big argument with the three of us. He changed a bit after that.

Now we're a bit more grown up :D, but it's shown that people don't really change unless you speak up.

MsNerdinator

30-06-2007, 03:38 PM

What is the motivation for bullying though? Often times when someone is bullied... there's nothing wrong with them. It's stated often that the primary motivation behind bullying is jealousy, whether the bully realises this or not. Does anyone think this is true? Or do other factors come into it.... such as financial status, race, and religion? Or are these things just excuses to vent envy?

That is such a good point, hun. Gives you something to think about. I know that each person who gets bullied will get bullied for a different reason. But my personal experiences? I can't say that was due to jealousy. Hehe. That much I'm pretty certain about. It was more to do with the fact that I had crossed eyes and had three operations all before I was 6 years old. My peers saw me come into school with bruised eyes from operations, etc. And obviously, it was a "reason" for them to bully me. I was shy too, and didn't talk much at all (now I can't shurrup, rofl), so it was very easy to "walk over me" and pick on me about the little things. First it was eyes, then it was nose, then it was my hair, then it was my skin colour. If they find one thing, they pick on you about 48392 other things. Though it's not always the case, it was just my personal experience, not sure if other people on here have experienced the same thing, maybe (?).

And because my peers saw me going through my eye problems and were around when my eyes were bad, they bullied me, and each year I was in the same class as the same people (as there was only one class per year group at my small school). There was no running away from the people who had bullied me from a young age. So they continued and found many more things to pick on. Worse 11 years of my life.. lol. Grrr..

As for what Facey asked.. if we know any reformed bullies. The girls that were at my school (that never played with me *sob* loool) went to the same girl's secondary school as me. Well, about 5 of them. And by the time you hit secondary school you become maturer and wiser. Those girls that had once bullied me for many years didn't do so anymore, and mostly because of the confidence that the school had given me, and the new friends I made. It was a nice change to start "fresh". I never had a problem with those girls after that. It's kinda cool that people can change their ways. :)

wild cherry

30-06-2007, 04:29 PM

That statement buffers i think is very very true, and good point its not mainstreamed just to children, adults also bully each other.
Ive also seen this happen and i can honestly say its much worse than when the kids do it because adults, or so called adults are supposed to have risen above that way before puberty.
Bullying at your workplace for instance, you go to work to earn your daily bread and some fool makes your life hell.
Wot do you do, put up with it, slap them in the head and risk arrest, leave your job, look like a lost sheep and meld in to the background, what a hell of a life eh.
Me personaly is to shrew and hot headed to ever be a victim of bullying, id never put up with it, but what of those of us who cannot speak up for themselves, my heart goes out to them.
I think adults who bully or need to be seen to be causeing a rift are in need of mental help, councelling ect.
They oviously are lacking something in there makeup which makes them want all the attention on themselves, id say they was very self centered people who proberly lead a very boreing shallow unhappy life, i suppose they should be pitied also:rolleyes:

bunE

30-06-2007, 06:03 PM

Bullying takes many forms and in adults is often sneaky and underhand. I was lucky to be brave enough to walk away from some "friends" when they became bullies and make friends with their "victims" I took a lot of crap for it but i was strong enough to ignore them and thats what i try to do in real life now. If I feel oppressed I put people on ignore. Maybe as children its harder to do that but its our job as parents to keep building our kids self esteem and show them how to fight bullies.

bunE

30-06-2007, 06:26 PM

Good post Cherry and good points
But are we debating arguments or bullies?

Fender

30-06-2007, 06:43 PM

I was always intensely shy at school, something that at 36 I’ve not conquered as much as I’d have liked. Also being overweight just added to the attraction for a certain “bully”. At primary school we had been friends but, upon joining secondary school, he must have felt the need to assert himself to big himself up with the other lads and so chose his former friend as a target.

Because I was so shy I found it very difficult to develop friendships with the other children, which is in itself very isolating, but to have somebody you once considered a friend picking on you just adds to the feeling of desperation. Then something happened. One day after school he and his new friends were waiting for me and they proceeded to taunt and bully me all the way home, including my ex-friend kicking me in the face (thankfully resulting in just bruising). The next day I was too traumatised to go to school, I think my parents had a word with the headmaster though I don’t think any affirmative action was taken by the staff against these lads.

The following day I did return to school, complete with still swollen mouth, and news of what had happened had obviously got around. I thought I was the unpopular, shy, big kid who sat in class making less noise than a mouse. I was wrong. At first break this ex-friend approached me, again taunting me, and I ran. I turned around to see that a load of other pupils had stopped him chasing me and were, to put it politely, kicking seven shades of something out of him. It wasn’t until that moment that I realised that the other kids even knew I existed much less cared, and I’d certainly not enlisted their help – I’d have been too shy! This boy and his friends never bullied me again. To use Pagan’s term, these pupils were certainly not ‘sheeple’, I’d barely ever spoken to any of them much less solicited their support (I’d have been too afraid they would reject me in favour of the bully.) They simply saw what I was like as a person and did not like seeing me subjected to such abuse and acted when they had the opportunity.

Oddly I have experienced a very similar situation in adult life, which again served to reinforce my feelings of self worth – I realised that I am well liked, though Lord knows why lol. I find that ignoring those that attack you sometimes makes them all the more determined, to the point they make themselves look laughable, but this says more about them than you and generally only serves to re-affirm others’ opinions. I think adults see bullies for what they are more readily than children do, they’re not so impressed by displays of maliciousness and are more likely to take a stand against it.

Why did that boy at school bully me? I think it was peer pressure from his new friends and my being an easy target. Most bullies are cowards when alone. You rarely get a bully working independently because they are seeking kudos for their actions. It’s a pathetic attempt at attention and acceptance seeking.

What causes most bullies to bully though? From what I’ve seen it’s predominately the inferior individual that feels they must assert themselves in another way. Pupils that excel academically are less likely to become bullies. You do get instances of pupils that are so bright they feel unchallenged and it leads to boredom and bullying becomes an outlet for frustration. Be the student falling behind or feeling unchallenged it’s the teachers’ responsibility to identify these pupils and assist them.

Of course there are bullies that are born of their upbringing, be it neglect or something else lacking at home. In these cases I think it’s the society’s responsibility to identify these instances and hold the parents accountable, not just wring their hands and say “Oh isn’t it such a shame, poor mite.”

My school’s lack of action, certainly to my knowledge, seems sadly indicative of many schools. It’s bad form to admit your school has a bullying problem and so it’s easier to sweep it under the carpet. Much as with the law in general (maybe another topic?), the victim is often victimised by those in authority too and made to feel responsible for the bully’s actions. Schemes such as at Buffers’ daughter’s school are very laudable so long as they are implemented correctly and not seen as a way for the staff to abdicate direct responsibility for the child’s wellbeing. The girl being placed with Nerdy might, to the teacher, have seemed an ideal solution. Pair them up and they support each other, in theory a good idea, yet conversely you could risk simply isolating both pupils and creating two targets for bullying. Teachers should be tackling the problem of isolated pupils by helping them integrate into the class as a whole, least that would be my ideal. It is generally the isolated child that gets picked upon, not one with a close band of friends for support. I've been lucky, those that witnessed the bullying decided to stand up for me, others don't fair so well.

Ultimately, if your child is being bullied at school you have to force the school to take affirmative action. It is your child’s wellbeing at stake and it could affect their entire future if ignored. Parents and teachers should work together to identify these problems as they arise and tackle them before they escalate.

The topic started as bullying at school so I’ll stick to that, also because I’ve written enough :razz: Suffice to say bullying can happen at any time in your life, as I’ve encountered, and can take many forms, but the end result is the same. In adulthood we often have the option of distancing ourselves from those that attack us; we also have recourse to the law if necessary. This is something children don’t for the most part have the luxury of.

tasha

30-06-2007, 06:58 PM

As there seems to be alot of people who were bullied at school here and I'm shocked by that! Is there anyone or do you know anyone who is a reformed bully? I think it would be interesting to hear how they felt about it.

The people I previously saw as bullies & victims have completely been reversed in the last couple of years.
In year7, a girl in my year was a bit of an outcast. She hadn't done anything wrong, and wasn't picked on in a big way, but yeah, she was bullied. The only thing I can recall happening was one or two of my friends deliberately telling her we had humanities, if we actually had art. These two lessons are at opposite ends of the school.. they basically did it every day & she probably caught on to it. It didn't go on for very long but she still didn't fit in for the rest of the year. She got into our group more, and gradually it's turned around. She's not reaaally a bully, as such, but she can get pretty ♥♥♥♥♥y.
On the other hand, the girl that was doing the main 'bullying' back in year 7, has actually been shown to be really nice, and one of the few genuine people I can think of at the moment.
Of course there's an exception.. the other girl that was bullying is still, and always has been, a bully. She's just clever at it. She's always managing to frame other people & for a long time it turned me against others because she made out that they were talking about people behind their back, when actually it was just her repeating EVERYTHING she heard. Or if she said to me, for example "Oh, Jane says you're really annoying. Don't you think she's a ♥♥♥♥♥?" And I would just nod my head, or say "I guess she can be sometimes," she'd go straight to Jane & say "Tasha said you're a ♥♥♥♥♥."

Worse 11 years of my life.. lol. Grrr..
11?

And by the time you hit secondary school you become maturer and wiser.
Do you?
Haven't seen a lot of proof of that, and I've got less than a year left.

Children aren't really like that. But I could be completely wrong..
Define child...
The girl I mentioned at the top of this post was maybe 12 when all this started, & she was ridiculously clever about it. It took us 2/3 years to figure out what was going on, and she's still doing it.

kisskiss

30-06-2007, 07:14 PM

Great post Fender, I found it and the others on the subject of bullying extremely touching and thought-provoking.

I think we all agree that bullied children need support and should never, ever be blamed. However when I hear of adults being bullied or blaming the insecurity or jealousy of others as the reason for it, then I always wonder about the other side of the story. Bullied children are blameless, adults are not. We do not live in a vacuum and our attitudes and actions affect other people. There are always two sides to every story and the person comlaining of bullying is not always the innocent victim they make themselves out to be.

MsNerdinator

30-06-2007, 07:34 PM

11?
That was a general estimate, as in, I meant the whole of my primary school years (which generally ends when you're 11). Sorry for generalising there, that was my mistake. But the real maths is obviously from the age of 4-11. I was bullied even in nursery, lol.

And by the time you hit secondary school you become maturer and wiser.
Do you?
Haven't seen a lot of proof of that, and I've got less than a year left.
I think you're taking me too literally, hun :) I meant the girls that went from bullying me all throughout my primary school years and then went to my secondary school and never bullied me ever again. They did change. All 5 of them. In those particular cases, they did become wiser. I'm not saying all and everyone. Afterall, if that was the case, then bullying wouldn't occur at all..

Define child...
The girl I mentioned at the top of this post was maybe 12 when all this started, & she was ridiculously clever about it. It took us 2/3 years to figure out what was going on, and she's still doing it.

By child, I was mainly referring to the much younger children. Much younger than 12. The sorts that tease people based on their looks, or beat them up based on their looks. I've found that they are not argumentative, sly or crafty in the way that adults can work when it comes to bullying. Hopefully that's a bit clearer :S Basically what kisskiss just said :P

Edit: Just seen your post 2.0
Wow, you were a bully, heh. I'd have to say, your example is the most common type of bullying that I've seen, rather than "gangs". When I was younger, though all my classmates didn't like me much, they were not hating me in "gangs", if that made sense.

tasha

30-06-2007, 07:39 PM

I think you're taking me too literally, hun :) I meant the girls that went from bullying me all throughout my primary school years and then went to my secondary school and never bullied me ever again. They did change. All 5 of them. In those particular cases, they did become wiser. I'm not saying all and everyone. Afterall, if that was the case, then bullying wouldn't occur at all..
Oh, okay. Obv. I understand you didn't mean everyone.. I just haven't seen proof of it happening anywhere yet, unfortunately =/

By child, I was maininly referring to the much younger children. Much younger than 12. The sorts that tease people based on their looks, or beat them up based on their looks. I've found that they are not argumentative, sly or crafty in the way that adults can work when it comes to bullying. Hopefully that's a bit clearer :S Basically what kisskiss just said :P
Again, okay, I was just checking what you meant, because there can be a big difference between the bullying that goes on at primary school and the
bullying that goes on after that.

At primary school it's more likely to be much more obvious that something's going on, but yeah, in secondary school it gets a bit sly & cunning. Sometimes you don't even have to be bullied to feel like everyone else is against you. It's part of growing up, I guess, and speaking from personal experience, you definitely don't have to be being picked on to feel that you're doing something wrong, or that others don't like you.

Nay

30-06-2007, 08:01 PM

Just make sure you know that not everybody is against you. It's called the 'spotlight effect'. People don't think about us half as much as you think they do, and they don't notice the things you do half as much as you think they do.
Just think about how often you think about another's actions. I mean, if somebody trips you may think 'Oh my, clumsy...', turn around and forget. While the person who tripped can feel ashamed for half a day :D

And is there anyone you know that you think of so negatively that you feel that you are against them? Unless you've had a really bad fight with someone, just expect that few people actually dislike you.

kisskiss

30-06-2007, 08:56 PM

just expect that few people actually dislike you.

and accept that some actually do? :biggrin:

Nay

30-06-2007, 09:06 PM

Of course! You can't please the whole world and at the same time be yourself and be happy

MsNerdinator

30-06-2007, 11:19 PM

I wanted to say what a great post, Fen. That was very insightful and moving. It was great to see other people stick up for you and beat that kid, lol, even if you weren't the "popular/loud" child. It just goes to show that people respected you. Again, maybe it's a maturity thing? Since you were in secondary school, kids are a bit older and willing to stand up more for the innocent ones. I didn't really notice much of that in primary school. I did notice it in my secondary school (of things that didn't involve me though. Phew. lol).

Schemes such as at Buffers’ daughter’s school are very laudable so long as they are implemented correctly and not seen as a way for the staff to abdicate direct responsibility for the child’s wellbeing. The girl being placed with Nerdy might, to the teacher, have seemed an ideal solution. Pair them up and they support each other, in theory a good idea, yet conversely you could risk simply isolating both pupils and creating two targets for bullying. Teachers should be tackling the problem of isolated pupils by helping them integrate into the class as a whole, least that would be my ideal. It is generally the isolated child that gets picked upon, not one with a close band of friends for support.

Yeah, I could see a scheme like that work for when I was in school. It's pretty sad when you grow up and realise what the teachers did to you. Putting the isolated kids with disabilities together. To comfort each other. And making things worse. We even had our own sort of section of the classroom together. Our table was a bit further out than others. I think about it more now because it makes me realise how much of an isolated life she had before she passed away, and how much teachers didn't give a darn about her or even try to encourage others to integrate with her. But at least she was a good friend to me, and I'm only glad that she at least had someone who liked her and was willing to hang around with her.

Meh.. Teachers. (No offense to the teachers out there). I'm just slightly bitter about some of my own old ones...

TempusFugit

30-06-2007, 11:43 PM

Such a very interesting debate - impossible to respond to each post as you lot have been extremely busy :razz:

From a personal perspective - I had the usual experiences at school, but nothing as awful as some of the experiences on here :sad: I will add more, but in all honesty - I have been on my feet for the last 13 hours (had a huge party today) and my brain is not ticking right.

Just to add briefly - My daughter was recently a victim of bullying and was hit around the face by one of the little toe-rags. I only found out when I noticed a bruise on her cheek - the school didn't even let me know. Suffice it to say, I went straight back around the school and demanded that something be sorted out. Because the Headteacher knows of my professional background and the fact that I cannot be fobbed off - the problem was resolved almost immediately.

One last thought before I retire and to hopefully add to the debate - Does the 'bullied' have the tendancy to become the 'bully'? I would be interested to hear your opinions (and will post my thoughts on this tomorrow) :biggrin:

Cunny_Funt

01-07-2007, 12:22 AM

Fender, I am glad that you had someone to stick up for you, and sorry to others that didn't.

It is not always the shy quiet kids, that get bullied. Lucky for me i was never bullied in Primary School, but i was in Secondary school... I was always known as the class clown, feeling down then ok i will make you laugh. I was rather loud in school ( no nothing has changed there :rolleyes: ) so maybe i was bullied as i showed that little bit more confidence, than the bullies themselves. There reason for bullying me, was because i was skinny. I went to school to experience life, it did make me a better person, and once i stood up to the bullies it all stopped. Then i moved into the work place, and was bullied there also for the same reason... she knocked what confidence i had down so low i found it hard to get up again, and ended up leaving work due to these circumstances. I watched my sister ( yrs bk now ) being bullied and it brought complete tears to my eyes, i have lost count of endless fights and arguments i had with their parents over it. If she was outside her own front door they started on her, if she moved elsewhere they started on her. The best thing she ever did, was stand up to them, she was 7 yrs old and they were calling her **** and **** etc... so she lifted just a plastic bottle and threw it, out of anger.. split the girls lip open. Then when the parent came up to ME, she stood there and let her daughter call me a *******. no now one bothers here. I am not one for backing down from a fight, but i can handle one on one, but not a gang of bullies.

Kelly ( lingus )

wild cherry

01-07-2007, 01:02 AM

I quite like the froth and bubble in some parts of the forum, it's better than reading silly newbie banned messages or indirect comments about other memebers in other threads.. :)

But hey, I'm just an 'airhead', lol. :razz:
Im forever blowing bubbles,oppps sorry i burst in to song.
Anyway as fender said we have veered off the bully debate, shall we continue it or go for a new topic.
Forum tis over to you:eek:

MsNerdinator

01-07-2007, 01:26 AM

Anyone who continues comments from previous debates (or off-topic comments) is gonna get a whack on their tushie by me :P *playful whack* heh.

A new debate topic I think... how about euthanasia? It's contraversial.. but if I ever have a debilitating illness... I think I should be allowed that choice. Anyone else?

Very good topic, Buffs! It's something that I've always found hard to form an opinion on. If it was me? I wouldn't want to because of religious reasons. But it's also something that I can't see myself wanting to do, anyway. I generally believe we shoudn't take that route if things get difficult and painful. But if it's someone else? I guess they should feel they can if they wanted to and have that choice.. even if I am against it. If that made sense o_O

It's such a sensitive topic, I'm looking forward to what people think :)

Cunny_Funt

01-07-2007, 02:23 AM

/me goes of topic, so she gets tushie slapped by nerdy :eek:

Obviously this is just my opinion, but believe that euthanasia should be legalised, it all boils down the the illness that you/person is suffering from. I know for a fact that if i had got to the stage in my life, where nothing else could be done for me, and I wasn't living i was just simple exisiting, just staying alive to take medication to take the pain away. I would want to something to end it. I know that it would kill me, if someone in my family asked me to assist their suicide, but also to leave them suffering for my benefit is seen, as selfish also. Some people might see that as being selfish. I know this is an old argument, but would you really see a poor animal suffer ? I have watched sooooooo many people close to me in my life suffer bad. All due to terminal illness, and what i would give just to ease their pain. To see them lying there in total pain is just so heart breaking. It must be awful on families that have to travel abroad, to carry out their families wishes, so as they don't get prosecuted. Surely at the end of the day it is your decision and no one elses. If you and you're family are fine with it, and there is no come back for you, you should be allowed. Does anyone else believe that Euthanasia should be legalised ? Or not due to religious beliefs

Good choice of topic Buffers

wild cherry

01-07-2007, 02:25 AM

Oh wow, i once watched a really disturbing episode of holby city, where one of the consultants wives had an incurable wasting diesese.
The storyline was heartbreaking, it touched on all the aspects of takeing your own life.
Anyway the wife went to a swiss town without her husbands knowledge, with another consultnat who was friends with the husband and the wife.
It showed you the interview which you go through if you want to end it all, they then see if they think your of sound mind ect to continue.
The friend who went along with the wife, contacted the husband in the end as the guilt was eating her up, the husband of course arrives before the end.
Thr shocking part for me was after the couple had finally discussed the issue of her death, it was agreed that he now understood and gave his blessing, omg then the death scene.
She was given a small plastic vial of some sort of liquid, she held it for a time before drinking it down, she was dead in less than 2 minutes.
It completly stopped her heart from beating any more, yes i cried the acting was so heartfelt and well researched.
So as to my opinion, well i dont rightly have one, i belive it comes down to personal choice and circumstances, personally being a mother i dought i could do it to my children, after all they have to live with it for life.
I would say god speed to those who chose that option as well.
I can see the need for it is there.
Although the bible states suicide is a sin before christ:cry:

Cunny_Funt

01-07-2007, 02:43 AM

Cherry i know what episode you are on about, i know it isn't real life or anything, but i broke my heart watching it... as i was relating to what way i would react in the same situation. Glad i watched it on me own :cry:

I think it is something, that you can't judge until faced with that situation personally. It is great to find out what other fourmites think, on this topic. I know you wouldn't want to ask your kids to do such a thing for you hun, what would you're opinion be if it was one of your kids ? I'm not trying to get a dig at you cherry hun, as that is not my intention . I really wanna see if your opinion changes if it was your kids that asked, of you and your hubby to do such a thing

Kelly ( lingus )

wild cherry

01-07-2007, 03:00 AM

Aww cunny what a question babe, well if one of my children felt that strongly about ending the pain then as a loving mother i would have to respect my childs wishes.
Heartbroken wouldent even come close, i would want to die with my child.
No parent should badger her child to not do what they feel is right for them, thats just emotional abuse.
So my answer is id give my child all the love and help he/ she needed to come to there own decision, omg i cant even contimplate this hell.
I pray to god i never find myself in that situation, but good question funty 1.

Cunny_Funt

01-07-2007, 05:47 AM

Just a quick note:

For those who noticed a couple of my posts missing. I believe there has been an attempt to re-open an unpleasant chapter in my life, which I chose to end initially and had to work hard to leave behind. I have decided not to give this any more attention... because that's what it's demanding of me. I have too much time to spend on other things to involve myself any further in such a situation and believe it's best to avoid revisiting that at all costs. I deleted my posts of my own free will, because I've always had this forum's best interests at heart. I hope you all understand why I've done this, and will not allow yourselves to be encouraged to participate in a long-dead and won quarrel which jilted parties cannot let go. Hugs to you all xxx

/me runs and huggles buffers, a good friend to all of us

lubs ya hun

kelly

x-x-x-x

kisskiss

01-07-2007, 07:57 AM

OMG Buffers, poor you, it never ends does it? We've seen many examples on this thread of what you've had to put up with.

My real concern about legalised euthanasia is that a person suffering from a terminal illness will feel pressured to choose it, to ease the burden on their spouse, family or state. Not every dying person has absolute love or support, people who will care for them no matter what the hardship. If the option for assisted suicide is there then so is option or suggestion that there is a time to use it.

I know that pain control is not always effective and many people die in pain but in my opinion the medical profession do all they can to ease the suffering of vulnerable, dying people and use pain medication to compassionately hasten death.

Legalised euthanasia or a murder of convenience? I think the water may get a little muddy in some cases.

TempusFugit

01-07-2007, 10:36 AM

My father died three years ago of cancer. He had been ill for quite some time, but it was never determined that it was cancer until three days before he passed away. I was shocked at how quickly he slipped away and the last hours of his life were awful. He slipped into unconsciousness and part of me believed that he would beat this - after surviving many things over a period of twenty years before.

Towards the end - it was very traumatic. The nurses were doing their best to give as much pain relief to my dad as possible and I remember thinking "please - just give him an overdose and put him out of his suffering". He died half an hour later.

During the weeks preceding his death - I recall feelings of immense guilt that I wished him dead. But I also felt relief that he was no longer suffering.

If euthansia was legal and the doctors asked my father whether he wanted this - would he have said yes? I don't know - but I think he would have wanted as much dignity as possible (which he had anyway).

I really don't know whether I agree with euthansia or not - so I have to sit on the fence and see how it all develops.

Posted by Pagan:
I wasn't referring to terminally ill people but gravely ill people who may survive being resuscitated successfully (and that does happen) with even more impairment to their condition.

To this I would say no. Terminally ill and gravely ill (whom I assume have a chance of recovering) are two separate cases entirely. Euthansia, should it become legal - should only be allowed for people whose life expectancy is only so many months and with no chance of recovery at all.

bunE

01-07-2007, 12:45 PM

Maybe there is froth and bubble on this forum. So what? People are free to post what they like within the rules. Calling their input froth and bubble is yet another form of bullying and shoving a smiley face in, doesn't disguise that.
Sorry but what is wrong with froth and bubble? Its nice good clean fun. Not hurting anybody. Do we have to be serious all the time??

With regards to Euthanasia
If it was me I have always said i would rather somebody put me out of their misery if I was terminally ill and a burden to people. However I do not know how I would feel if someone I loved asked me to do it. I think as is often the case it is up to each individual and the circumstances. but if it was made legal there would be the chance of people abusing it, saying that they had been asked to do it when they had not etc

Buffers

01-07-2007, 01:24 PM

There's a problem with euthanasia to me, not in the case of the terminally ill, (who in my mind, without a doubt should be allowed that choice, I know I would want it) but in the case of the elderly. Towards the end of a person's life (and it will come to us all if we are lucky enough to live our full life) they can have dementia and other age-related conditions affecting the mind. They would therefore not be judged fit to make a decision regarding their death. If it was made legal, this would become the decision of next of kin? Are we assuming they love their relatives? Not everyone does. Happily most do, but this is a problem and I believe one of the main reasons why euthanasia has not been legalised. If I ever find out I have a terminal condition, or I begin to lose my faculties in old age, I may well take the step of ending my own life. It's a case of taking the choice why I still have the ability, mentally or physically, to do it. I believe it should be my right to die reasonably painlessly, when and where I want to. Of course... I believe everyone should have that right. I'll reiterate though, that it is problematic in some cases.

Nay

01-07-2007, 01:45 PM

I think it's wrong to deny other people a right to make personal choices because of your own beliefs, so if you don't want to legalise euthanasia because of your religion or values of another kind, I think you're selfish. Your beliefs are yours, don't bother others with them unless they want to hear.

But I think it should only be legal for the person themselves to decide; sane or not. You have full responsibility for your own acting and decision making, so if you say 'end it', so be it. I think it's terrible that you cannot even choose to end your own life! As if we're not good enough to make decisions for ourselves.

So in short, yes, I fully support being in control of your own life and death.

bunE

01-07-2007, 01:48 PM

Facey

01-07-2007, 01:48 PM

Yes hun, that does make sense xxx

Quick question. Is anyone savvy on the laws in Switzerland about this? I'm wondering if it would clarify some of the cloudy areas this issue has. I pressume it works as sucessfully over there as we hear about.

Nay

01-07-2007, 01:56 PM

Yes but some people are incapable of making that choice at some stages of illness or age. My fear is that other family members would be able to take advantage for their own personal reasons and forge agreements etc and kill off people. (does that make sense)

Well if you have any way of communicating then you're able to make the decision, in my opinion.
If you're in a state of coma or something, it's a different case. I said that only the person themselves may decide... so if they have a chance of pulling through and they haven't signed some certificate earlier in their lives, I guess you'll have to try to keep them alive.

The point is that only you should be able to make the decision, 'cos your life is the only thing you truly own.

FairyNuff

01-07-2007, 04:14 PM

I have just written probably 3 massive paragraphs, and had to delete it all. I don't think I can comment on this subject, it's far too hard for me. In some ways I think it's a good idea, then all the bad situations arise, making it extremely difficult for me to comment!

Let me put it this way; What's more important? The dying persons wishes, or the feelings of those left behind?

When my mother was diagnosed with terminal cancer, in the weeks before her death, I respected her wishes in any way I could. To me, it's about being completely unselfish which is very hard to do when you are an emotional wreck. I always put my mum's feelings first. My mum and surrounding family were lucky in the fact my mother's illness didn't drag on. If she had been ill for months.... years, and had NO quality of life at all, and she had asked me to help her die, I would of probably considered it, with the help and advice of professionals by the way. But that's extremely easy for me to say now isn't it? If it were now, right this moment, and I had to discuss this subject with her, would I make the same decision? Who knows.

Anyone that has to deal with this subject head on in real life has my utmost respect. Facing death is hard enough, and seeing a loved one suffer is torment.

Cunny_Funt

01-07-2007, 10:47 PM

After re-reading some of your posts on this subject, I am now in two minds, as to whether i could carry out such a deed. The more i sit and think of it the more i get confused about what i would like, how i would cope, would i be riddled with guilt if i did or did not do it. I feel unless you are faced with that situation, then you cannot honestly say what you would do ( but that is my opinion ) How would we feel if our parents asked us to assist them die ? Could we honestly ask the same of our children ? Guilt is a very heavy word and i am one that would always be riddled with guilt, no matter what decision i chose to take.

TempusFugit

01-07-2007, 10:55 PM

Cunny_Funt

01-07-2007, 10:57 PM

Cunny - I feel guilty even to this day that I wanted my dad dead. I can't say sorry to him now and feel bad that I even thought that at the time. However, I didn't want to see him suffer :S

See why I am sitting on this fence? :S

/me huggles T.F. awww hun guilt is a terrible thing

/me might ask T.F. to make room on the fence, for a ickle one

Bad_MaNneR$

02-07-2007, 09:09 AM

Ok some of my closest friends know that I wasn't going to post on this thread for a little while - just to keep myself from gobbing off - but I couldn't help noticing.........

......did it suddenly get awfully quiet around here?

kisskiss

02-07-2007, 09:14 AM

Yes, isn't it wonderful? Just the sound of familiar voices having a proper discussion and showing eachother a little support and understanding without the discordant sound of trouble-makers.

Ches

02-07-2007, 10:27 AM

Doesn't make for particularly lively debate though, does it?

Facey

02-07-2007, 10:29 AM

There's a difference between lively and upsetting people.

Ches

02-07-2007, 10:47 AM

Yes, however the point where they meet is a thin, thin line indeed.

02-07-2007, 10:52 AM

Yes, isn't it wonderful? Just the sound of familiar voices having a proper discussion and showing eachother a little support and understanding without the discordant sound of trouble-makers.

Whilst taking no sides I believe it's important to remember it takes more than one person to make an argument and this whole episode has been unpleasant and unnecessary.

/me hopes this sort of thing will not spoil the forum again

JASR

02-07-2007, 11:07 AM

Yes, however the point where they meet is a thin, thin line indeed.

A lively and healthy debate is when 2 or more people have differing opinions, and can leave the debate with no recriminations and have a laugh together at something entirely different.

The line is crossed, IMO, when a debate descends into personal or deregotary comments - Whether they are made in public or private.

...Or when someone tries to argue something reasonably fundamental to the entire world, like 1+1=2, being wrong.

:smile:

flopsy

02-07-2007, 11:36 AM

Or when someone tries to argue something reasonably fundamental to the entire world, like 1+1=2, being wrong.

Hmm...

a) -1/1 = 1/-1

b) Take the square root of both sides:

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/5675/11956395iu7.gif
c) Simplify that to:

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/3531/75654941rg9.gif
d) In other words, i/1 = 1/i

e) Therefore i / 2 = 1 / (2i)

f) i/2 + 3/(2i) = 1/(2i) + 3/(2i)

g) i (i/2 + 3/(2i) ) = i ( 1/(2i) + 3/(2i) )

h)
http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/8894/10186001fl2.gif
i) (-1)/2 + 3/2 = 1/2 + 3/2

j) consequently, 1=2

k) Therefore 1+1=4!

Quod Erat Demonstrandum. :twisted:

Vik

02-07-2007, 11:42 AM

errrrrrr..

/me bans flopsy for being too clever by half

I agree with JASR - as soon as personal remarks come into it, the debate is lost.

So, what's our new topic for discussion? How about somethign environmental? Should low budget airlines be allowed to exist? Do they do more damage to the environment then should be allowed?

flopsy

02-07-2007, 12:08 PM

errrrrrr..

* Vik;89042 bans flopsy for being too clever by half

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeek! That's lagomorphicide!

JASR

02-07-2007, 12:08 PM

Quod Erat Demonstrandum. :twisted:

Back of the class wabbit, and see me after school!

/me puts on Joyce Grenfell voice (and dress)
'and wabbit... don't do that'

1+1=2 made the top 20 equations of all time: http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/17/10/2/1/pwpov2%5F10%2D04

flopsy

02-07-2007, 12:13 PM

Back of the class wabbit, and see me after school!

* JASR;89046 puts on Joyce Grenfell voice (and dress)
'and wabbit... don't do that'

Whatever happened to George?

1+1=2 made the top 20 equations of all time: http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/17/10/2/1/pwpov2%5F10%2D04

LOL, it doesn't say how many people voted in that poll, only that there were 120 mentions altogether!

MsNerdinator

02-07-2007, 12:19 PM

lol..this is turning into a maths debate. I'll stay out of this one. Yuckly maths :P

/me leaves the thread before her IQ drops some more.
(1+1=10)

Facey

02-07-2007, 12:21 PM

lol that reminds me, I purposely drew a bill in isketch that didn't add up and someone had an arguemtn with me about it lol :biggrin: Yes, 2 + 7 +10 = 15!

MsNerdinator

02-07-2007, 02:19 PM

Just something added on previous debate about debate. This is a debate thread, a debate is simply an argument. If you don't like arguments, don't read the debate thread. I agree it can be done without getting 'personal' and when it does that argument is lost. However, unless you have an introspective view on what is 'personal' to people involved, I don't see how an external force can judge. If you don't like debate... steer clear of the thread. It's a bit like going to a footy match and complaining because the other team's supporters sing louder.

Am I the only one that doesn't see debates as arguments? I really dislike arguments and drama, but I do read this thread and post, because it's quite easy to have a debate without seeing it as arguing :) Mostly just sharing opinions/stories/views. My previous posts have shown that. Same goes with other members. I've seen it as more of a discussion than argument. Except for the clear and obvious drama that took place, which involved both parties. When things get personal and it's clear that they are, then I'd more likely consider it as argument/drama because it moves away from a debate/discussion. Just my opinion.

As for maths.. I really dislike it too. I was okay at maths in school, managed to get a B at GCSE, but I never had a passion for it or couldn't understand it without hard work. And I have nightmares about being in school and messing up maths exam papers (even to this day), heh. It is the subject I like least, yet it is the subject that AJ feels most passionately about. I knew we weren't related. :razz:

Bad_MaNneR$

02-07-2007, 02:22 PM

As long as it's rational and not derogatory or......

God forbid.......

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/4648/spamc07un9.jpg

Ches

02-07-2007, 02:39 PM

Debate:

OP: This is a good idea, for the following reasons: blah blah blah.
Reply: I disagree, *discount reasons* *provides own reasoning*
Reply2: Yes, although you both have good points.
OP: I see where you are coming from, but *further research* etc etch

Argument:

OP: This is a good idea for the following reasons: blah blah blah
Reply1: That is so stupid. You smell of goats.
OP: You should agree with me. I pwn joo. Join me or die, cheesehead.
Reply1: Agree? I'd rather drink a pint of old man's spit, you make me sick.

That's what I think of when I hear the two... lol.

Same basic structure, slightly different etiquette.

bunE

02-07-2007, 02:48 PM

Are we debating what a debate is now?? Im just checking before I put my 2pence in.

MsNerdinator

02-07-2007, 02:54 PM

Argument:
OP: This is a good idea for the following reasons: blah blah blah
Reply1: That is so stupid. You smell of goats.
OP: You should agree with me. I pwn joo. Join me or die, cheesehead.
Reply1: Agree? I'd rather drink a pint of old man's spit, you make me sick.
That's what I think of when I hear the two... lol.

lol! Remind me to not get into an argument with you, you cheesehead. :razz: (fyi, you can't call me a poopoohead, that's MY word!)
/me scrolls up to find Vik

So, what's our new topic for discussion? How about somethign environmental? Should low budget airlines be allowed to exist? Do they do more damage to the environment then should be allowed?

I don't know enough about this, or I would comment :S I'll just nod and smile sweetly, lol.

Edit: Rabbitrun, sure go ahead. Feel free to comment without permission, since we're already on the topic.

flopsy

02-07-2007, 02:55 PM

Are we debating what a debate is now?? Im just checking before I put my 2pence in.

Yes we are, and after that, the two of us are going to debate why there are so many rabbits on the forum these days whilst less fortunate animals argue over the price of fish.

Bad_MaNneR$

02-07-2007, 03:05 PM

I'D LIKE AN ARGUMENT PLEASE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM)

Man: Is this the right room for an argument?
Other Man:(pause) I've told you once.
Man: No you haven't!
Other Man: Yes I have.
M: When?
O: Just now.
M: No you didn't!
O: Yes I did!
M: You didn't!
O: I did!
M: You didn't!
O: I'm telling you, I did!
M: You didn't!
O: (breaking into the developing argument) Oh I'm sorry, is this a five minute
argument, or the full half hour?
M: Ah! (taking out his wallet and paying) Just the five minutes.
O: Just the five minutes. Thank you.
Anyway, I did.
M: You most certainly did not!
O: Now let's get one thing perfectly clear: I most definitely told you!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did! ___
M: Oh no you didn't! \
O: Oh yes I did! \
M: Oh no you didn't! \
O: Oh yes I did! \
M: Oh no you didn't! \
O: Oh yes I did! \
M: Oh no you didn't! \
O: Oh yes I did! > very fast
M: Oh no you didn't! /
O: Oh yes I did! /
M: No you DIDN'T! /
O: Oh yes I did! /
M: No you DIDN'T! /
O: Oh yes I did! /
M: No you DIDN'T! /
O: Oh yes I did! ___/
M: Oh look, this isn't an argument!

(pause)

O: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!

(pause)

M: It's just contradiction!
O: No it isn't!
M: It IS!
O: It is NOT!
M: You just contradicted me!
O: No I didn't!
M: You DID!
O: No no no!
M: You did just then!
O: Nonsense!
M: (exasperated) Oh, this is futile!!

(pause)

O: No it isn't!
M: Yes it is!
(pause)
I came here for a good argument!
O: AH, no you didn't, you came here for an *argument*!
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
O: Well! it CAN be!
M: No it can't!
An argument is a connected series of statement intended to establish a
proposition.
O: No it isn't!
M: Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction.
O: Look, if I *argue* with you, I must take up a contrary position!
M: Yes but it isn't just saying "no it isn't".
O: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
O: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
O: Yes it is!
M: No it ISN'T! Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just
the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.
O: It is NOT!
M: It is!
O: Not at all!
M: It is!

>DING!< The Arguer hits a bell on his desk and stops.

O: Thank you, that's it.
M: (stunned) What?

O: That's it. Good morning.
M: But I was just getting interested!
O: I'm sorry, the five minutes is up.
M: That was never five minutes!!
O: I'm afraid it was.
M: (leading on) No it wasn't.....

(pause)
O: (dirty look) I'm sorry, I'm not allowed to argue any more.
M: WHAT??
O: If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five
minutes.
M: But that was never five minutes just now!
(pause... the Other Man raises his eyebrows)
Oh Come on!
Oh this is...
This is ridiculous!
O: I told you...
I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you PAY!
M: Oh all right. (takes out his wallet and pays again.) There you are.
O: Thank you.
M: (clears throat) Well...
O: Well WHAT?
M: That was never five minutes just now.
O: I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid!
M: Well I just paid!
O: No you didn't!
M: I DID!!!
O: YOU didn't!
M: I DID!!!
O: YOU didn't!
M: I DID!!!
O: YOU didn't!
M: I DID!!!
O: YOU didn't!
M: (unable to talk straight he's so mad) I don't want to argue about it!
O: Well I'm very sorry but you didn't pay!
M: Ah HAH!! Well if I didn't pay, why are you arguing??? Ah HAAAAAAHHH!
Gotcha!

O: (pause) No you haven't!
M: Yes I have!
If you're arguing, I must have paid.
O: Not necessarily.
I *could* be arguing in my spare time.

tasha

02-07-2007, 04:05 PM

*Insert smart maths here*

Quod Erat Demonstrandum. :twisted:

Didn't try & follow the maths.. but I understand the last bit. xD
I have a stupidly smart friends who keeps saying "QED."
Then people get confused. And she goes "Quod Erat Demonstr(okay here I'm confused. You wrote andum. She says atum)something"
Anyways.
It basically means "So."
I'll never understand why people don't just say that!

Argument:
OP: This is a good idea for the following reasons: blah blah blah
Reply1: That is so stupid. You smell of goats.

Ad hominem, methinks.
Attacking the person, rather than the argument.
/flirt Critical Thinking

I'D LIKE AN ARGUMENT PLEASE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM)

Man: Is this the right room for an argument?
Other Man:(pause) I've told you once.
Man: No you haven't!

Okay, so this actually is the CT thread then? :eek:
We watched that last week.
Hilaaaaaaaarious clip!

Oh okay now I have to add something worthwhile don't I..

Oh yesss let's do animal testing. Me & the smart girl (or the smart girl & I? :razz:) filled over an hour's worth of humanities lessons with debates on that. Verrry interesting stuff.
And then we debated it in CT.
Stop coming back to those lessons! It's scaring me! :eek:

TempusFugit

02-07-2007, 04:52 PM

LMAO @ BM!! That was very, very funny :biggrin:

Can I suggest a new topic of debate/polite exchange or view/handbags (or wallets) at dawn? :razz:

With regard to recent terrorist activities - should the ID card be brought forward (or for members where this is already in existence - does it really work)?

I will put my tuppence worth in as soon as I have sorted my son's tea out :razz:

tasha

02-07-2007, 05:03 PM

I think the ID thing is kind of taking it a bit too far... I'm not sure how it works though?

I'm assuming it's not just an ID card round your neck?
'Coz if it is, then that's surely much too easy to steal or fake.
Presumably they came up with something smarter than that. Can someone give me some very simple background info on it? Please? *smiles sweetly*

bunE

02-07-2007, 05:12 PM

Yes we are, and after that, the two of us are going to debate why there are so many rabbits on the forum these days whilst less fortunate animals argue over the price of fish.

I want to debate why so many of us choose rabbity type names?

LMAO BM that made me giggle

With regard to the debate debating thread, I like it at my sons school beacause they teach them how to debate rather than argue. Its mostly important in a debate to put your point across without name calling or getting personal.

flopsy

02-07-2007, 05:27 PM

Didn't try & follow the maths.. but I understand the last bit. xD
I have a stupidly smart friends who keeps saying "QED."
Then people get confused. And she goes "Quod Erat Demonstr(okay here I'm confused. You wrote andum. She says atum)something"
Anyways.
It basically means "So."
I'll never understand why people don't just say that!

Quod Erat Demonstrandum translates literally as "which was to be demonstrated". And it should be Demonstrandum... unless your friend is being stupidly smart with the Latin and doing something with her past pluperfect participles. I'll stick with what I know, if it was good enough for Euclid it's good enough for me.

TempusFugit

02-07-2007, 05:37 PM

/me flirts with the wabbit's latin tongue

Ches

02-07-2007, 05:39 PM

latine loqui non est difficilissimum. lingua speciem involutam praebet, sed sat cito eam comprehendes

possibly...

MsNerdinator

02-07-2007, 05:42 PM

/me nods her head at all the maths and latin speak..
latine loqui non est difficilissimum. lingua speciem involutam praebet, sed sat cito eam comprehendes

possibly...

Did that say "I am spamming.. possibly.."? :razz:

tasha

02-07-2007, 05:44 PM

Ches

02-07-2007, 06:01 PM

Righty ho, master debaters and cunning linguists...
(sorry I had to)

I think the time has come to fire up some new threads. Anyone can pick a topic for debate, and anyone can create a new thread, so if you have something on your mind or you just want a bit of a (civil!) argument, get posting.

This should serve to:

Make finding the debate you wish to participate in simpler.
Keep posts on topic, no switching between debates.
Keep down the spam a bit (especially from me.)

This thread is too confusing for me. Please, think of me ickle brain! :)

For now there is a humour and debate section, and any new debate can be posted here. In the future... who knows, there may even be a debate only section.

TempusFugit

02-07-2007, 06:07 PM

Wonderful :razz:

For ease of reference just for now, should all new debates be started like this:

Debate - Why is the sky blue

Debate - Should Ches, Nerdy and Vik hold an iSketch Forum Marathon where one of them has to be online at this forum over a period of 24 hours (bit like Green Relay) :razz:

Those were just tongue in cheek examples... but what do you think?

Ches

02-07-2007, 06:08 PM

Sounds like perfection on a stick to me.

TempusFugit

02-07-2007, 06:09 PM

Wonderful... first topic of debate... will be: Example 2 :razz:

/me runs off and creates new thread :razz:

Edit: Maybe the thread regarding the Glasgow Bombing should be moved here? Perhaps retitled 'Terrorism' or something like that?

flopsy

02-07-2007, 06:13 PM

Can we debate why there's any point in learning latin?

We don't speak it!
Why do we need to learn it? :eek:
Ony of my grandparents is really into it & is trying to teach it to me & my sister.
It's going veeeeery badly. She doesn't actually know much latin.

When I was at school there wasn't a choice: Latin was obligatory for everyone up to 'O' Level and it was a required subject for university entrance in many disciplines.

At the time I used to say the same as you "why do I need to learn it?" and as in the end I got into a university that required Maths 'O' Level and not Latin, it could be argued that it had been a waste of time. But actually I use my Latin knowledge quite often - I can work out what a difficult word means because I understand how it was constructed and what Latin words were used. (And sometimes knowing the Latin helps me spot the use of Greek!) On top of that, while I can't speak many other languages, I can read a few at least to the level of understanding the overall meaning because they too are based on Latin. It's also useful in medicine and other scientific disciplines where Latin terminology is still used... and I can always spell the word 'separate' correctly!

And don't forget, quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

MsNerdinator

02-07-2007, 06:13 PM

Wonderful... first topic of debate... will be: Example 2 :razz:

* TempusFugit;89188 runs off and creates new thread :razz:

LOL! At the moment, we're a bit like buses.. we come in threes or not at all :razz:

And I think your edit is a good idea, TF :)

TempusFugit

02-07-2007, 06:15 PM

Pfft... I have writer's block and can't think of anything to debate at the moment :sad:

I will think of something :S

/me loves the reference to buses :razz:

FairyNuff

02-07-2007, 06:16 PM

Sorry BM, I got bored at the first (pause).

Nay

02-07-2007, 06:23 PM

Well, we could continue the debate on ID cards that TF suggested above... I already gave my reply, wonder what you all think.

TempusFugit

02-07-2007, 06:26 PM

Excellent idea Nay... I will repost it :biggrin: Care to copy and paste your contribution?

I may even do a little poll too :biggrin:

Vik

02-07-2007, 08:35 PM

Great! I'm glad about the separate threads for dicussion. Let's keep this one just for discussions that spill over from other theads now :)

Cunny_Funt

03-07-2007, 09:57 AM

/me would like to know, what the topic of debate is now ? As I'm from Costa Del Buck Eejitville i am seen as foreigner and was not given a map :rolleyes:

Vik

03-07-2007, 10:05 AM

There is no current debate here :)

There is a debate going on in this section of forum though, about ID cards, started by the lovely clock.

jewels

03-07-2007, 11:35 AM

I thought there was a post of buffers, about animal testing

either press
option 1 ( buffers deleted it)
option 2 ( mods deleted it)
option 3 ( all the forum wabbits deleted it)(you know who you all are):razz:
option 4 ( i'm going mad and seeing things):eek:

Well my views, very briefy, as much as I love animals, and dislike cruelty to animals in any shape or form , I am all for animal testing. I must state only if being used for drugs/medicines. Years ago I used to check all my cosmetic purchases to make sure they hadn't been testing on animals, but now most products I see carry the not tested on animals logo.:razz:

At some time or another most off us have taken antibiotics / pain relief tablets, which of course at same stage will have in whole or part would have been tested on animals. What I do object to is when a manufacturer ( pharmaceutlcal company ) first delvelopes a new drug/medicine they get the patent/copy right to it, no other drug/ pharmaceutical company can then copy/sell that drug for so many years, but once that time has lapsed every drug company going can then market their own brand of it, thus all those poor little animals have to go through testing again, although from certain articles I have read I think here in the uk the goverment/ and powers that be have accepted once one pharmaceutlcal company has proven a part of a drug safe it's is not neccesary for every pharmaceutlcal company to prove it aswell. I do bury my head in the sand abit and try not to think of those poor little animals locked up in cages having all sorts pumped into them, but saying that I myself wouldn't want to take any drugs that had been fully proven to be safe, so it's down to the pharmaceutlcal company to make sure the animals do not go through any more suffering than is needed, as I would love it if they all got together worldwide and tested the new drug combinations just once at one company rather than ever company worldwide all carry out the same tests.

sorry I haven't really made my views as a debate as such, rather than just my views, but please feels free to disagree with me.

edit wasn't there a story a while ago when humans did test drugs and some man was really ill ?