As you have probably all heard, a woman in California has given birth to 8 babies. She was having fertility treatment and she already has 6 children.

What do you think of this story? Is it unethical for a hospital to give fertility treatment to a woman with 6 kids, and if not - how about implanting 8 embryos? Why not 2 or 3 which is, I think, the normal procedure?

The chances that some of not all of these children having problems is high - it's very lucky that they have all survived so far.

So, what are your thoughts? I have mixed feelings about this. I think it's amazing it ever even happened, and I have a real soft spot for the kids, but I cannot get my head around WHY the woman would want to have fertility treatment when she already has a large family. Where will they live? Who will be paying for them all? Will they all get the love and attention that they need?

Over to you.

Yeah man, I almost fainted when I read that she had 8. Then I crossed my legs. And then I did faint when I read that she had 6 already :P

To be honest, I'm on mixed feelings about it all, as well. I was wondering how she'd cope! Not only that, but she said she wants to breastfeed them all! :o ALL! So to me, she does seem dedicated, otherwise no one would put themselves through that.

I guess a number of things would have to be taken into consideration - like how old her other 6 children are. Could be that they are at an age where they can help her out. I dunno :/

I have a feeling she might get some help from the government, but I could be wrong. I know in Egypt a woman gave birth to 7 babies (naturally, no treatments) and already had a large family. The government said they were gonna provide her with nappies and food for the babies for the first 2 years of their lives. But I don't know what California's terms would be (if any).

That said, I do think it's possible to give love to all your children. It really does come down to the parents, how they live, what jobs they have, how much attention they give to their children, etc. It is something I've thought about, but can't find myself commenting on properly, 'cause it's more of a "you've gotta be there to see it" thing.

Interesting thread Vik.

I must say, my immediate thought was the same as yours - why would a woman, who has so many young children already, want (and be assessed by a medical professional as requiring) fertility treatment?

I can't get my head around it. I have 3 children, who are 10, 7 and 5 - so at one point, not so long ago, there were 3 pre-school age children in my house, and I know the amount of work/stress/pressure that was. I simply cannot fathom the time needed for 8 new-born babies - let alone the other children in the house.....my thoughts at this stage are really just stunned amazement at how that was medically approved, and the effect on the people (ie the children) already in the house.

I have a good friend with 4 children all born within 6 years of each other, and the third one was highly disabled. After about 12 months of caring for their disabled child, they made the incredibly tough decision to place her in care outside their home. THis was based on a lot of things - and even though I have talked with her at length about it, I can't imagine the feelings she and her husband have endured making and living with that decision. The point is......one of the reasons they felt that this was the best course of action was that they considered the needs of the other children - they were spending virtually 24 hours caring for one child, when they had 2 other 'normal' toddlers who were requiring the 'normal' parental involvement - ie 24/7 attention - and this could not be given because the needs of their disabled daughter were 'higher' in that they contribuuted to her physical survival, rather than (as well as) her mental/emotional/spiritual survival.

I, regardless of being agnostic :P, pray for all the people in that family - the newborns, the other children , the parents - I hope that each and every one of them receives the love/time/space/assistance/money/support that they all will need.

I'm a bit confused as to how she was judged eligible for this treatment when there are childless couples who make themselves penniless trying to get a child of their own. I think perhaps it's money over common sense. However, as long as all those children are given the best care possible and are loved I don't suppose it matters. I just can't help but feel for those who have found fertility treatment beyond their financial reach and how they must feel when these stories reach the press. :(

... Is it unethical for a hospital to give fertility treatment to a woman with 6 kids, and if not - how about implanting 8 embryos? Why not 2 or 3 which is, I think, the normal procedure? ...

I don't think it's unethical as such... it's not morally wrong to increase fertility, I think. But I do think it's a bit bizarre to try to increase fertility when one is already clearly fertile.

... but I cannot get my head around WHY the woman would want to have fertility treatment when she already has a large family. ...

Without knowing the woman personally and only knowing what the press has said, I can only assume that she must love children and her definition of 'large family' is different to the 'normal definition' of 'large family' (by my definition, 5 children is 'rather large family').

... Where will they live? Who will be paying for them all? Will they all get the love and attention that they need? ...

Again, I don't know the woman and can't comment on all the practical arrangements but there are always options like nannies, daycare, living in a joint family, etc. I don't know what her situation is, but I think it's possible to make it work.

Although Saff does raise valid concerns about the time required to give each individual child the attention it needs. I'm so sorry Saff to hear about your friend having to put their disabled child in external care - that must have been a really heart-wrenching decision :sad:.

So the above is what I think as an outsider of the situation

but...

my own personal opinion (even as someone who doesn't know all the details) is generally that... I think it's a shame that there are so many parentless children out there who need a home, and yet some couples choose to 'have their own' children. I understand that yes, there is probably some difference in 'having your own' and adopting, but I think it would be nice if people could do more than just say 'oh that's such a shame that kid doesn't have parents, but I'd rather have my own 5 children'. I'm not saying people should go around adopting children and not have their own children, so don't have a go at me for that, I'm just saying that... there is that option if people want 'large families' - to parent a child who needs a parent.

I think that if I have a family, I'll have one of my own and adopt one other.

I think it is sad that this woman felt she needed fertility treatments. Personally, I think she should have been blessed with the children she already had.

That said, I also admire her for refusing to destroy her children when she was encouraged to reduce the number. She apparently used all the rest of her embryos that she already had.

Also sad is the fact that she lives with her parents and is single. I do think with help she can and will love all her children. I grew up in a community where women frequently have large families of 10 or 12 or more children. Granted, those ladies tend to have their children spaced out a bit more!

I will also comment on adoption. Yes, there are far too many children out there without parents, but the sad reality is that the children who need homes the most are not the sweet, adorable caucasian children born and offered up with no problems. The neediest children are in their tweens and teens, often with siblings, and most of whom have significant behavioral, attachment problems, and medical needs (do some quick reading on ODD, RAD, PTSD, FAS/FAE and more to see what is out there). It takes really special people to take on all the therapy and behavioral problems of these older children. I frankly don't believe that people are willing to take on these problems instead of having their own biological children. Okay, off my lecturn now!

Great discussion Vik.

I also have mixed feelings about this subject.
I think it's great that 8 new lives have been brought into this world, especially as all 8 of them are still surviving. However, I don't know why anyone would want another 8 children after having 6 already. I agree with Sam in saying that I admire her decision for not having an abortion when she had the option to. It must not be an easy decision to make, especially as there are so many lives at stake.

It is such a shame that she is a single parent and surely, no matter how many children she has, the father would have more decency to stay around and provide help. It happens all too often in this day in age.

I also hope that she loves all her children equivalently. It's going to be difficult for her, but at the end of the day, she chose to have all these children.

Having said all of that, I wish her every success and happiness.

http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo177/db1986/egg-2.jpg

I think this poses really interesting questions on a couple of different issues, and I'm not sure if my comments on the situation would have as much weight as the comments of someone who actually has kids. So I'll admit that this is coming from the mouth of a rather naive teenager.

I really think it's absurd for 1 person to have 14 children, under any circumstance.
I also think it's extremely unwise and somewhat irresponsible for the woman in this particular situation: she's supporting these children without any assistance except that from her parents (who may be happy or terrified by this?), and that being said I strongly doubt that she's financially stable or independent. I'm not saying that a single mother can't raise kids, I'm just saying that I think a 1:14 ratio is preposterous.

This is the part that's going to sound kind of well...
I think that she's imposed a huge burden on society and on our environment. I'm a firm believer that we're going to have a lot of issues in the future in which we just aren't going to be able to sustain our entire population with the earth's limited resources, so I think 14 kids to one family is insane.

Anyway, that's just my opinion. I'm in no way saying that people shouldn't have a lot of kids or that a single mother isn't capable of raising this many kids, I just don't think it's the best situation and I wouldn't ever put myself in her position if I could avoid it.
That being said, I'm really glad that everything worked out well for her, and that she's healthy as are all her children.

Um well this does seem to be a bit of a dodgy story. She received IVF treatment in order to have the children which she would not have been approved for and they would not have given someone her age 8 embryos... It implied something underhand is going on one way or another. I read that's she's obsessed with children, and addicted to having babies :s, her family are struggling to cope with the 6 kids they have noww let alone eight more, her mum filed for bankruptcy last year... and her dad is hardly enthused about it.

So normally she wouldn't have been allowed by doctors to have that many children which I would have to agree with given her mental state and financial situation based on what I've read....

Myself and my wife would give anything to be parents, but it looks like that is not to be.

It's upsetting for people in our position to read about the greed and selfishness of others. She could have donated some of the embryos to other childless couples.

I'm going to stop typing now.

/me hugs Deadlock and Mrs Deadlock :(

I do agree with you. But more so for those people who have children, but abuse them/don't treat them properly/kill them, etc. I can't say I'd say someone who wants loads of kids and is a great parent is selfish, but I'd definitely say it about the other types of people (that I mentioned).

That said, it is known that people have kids purely to get benefits, even. :rolleyes: I read an article about that. So yeah, that's another example of greed and selfishness.

So many kids have been neglected. It just makes me sick. Why bother having kids if you can't take care of them >_< They honestly do not realise what treasure they hold...

Btw, I don't mean any offense about the part about why bother having kids and not taking care of them.. I know in some poorer countries they have no choice, for example. But in the richest parts of the world, there is still neglect that shouldn't be there.

/me hugs Deady x
When I first heard the story all I heard was a lady had eight babies, she wants to breast feed them all. Yay, wow and excuse me while I just cross my legs even though she didn't give birth naturally. Then I heard she had Six other children. Big wow. I assumed she was married, had a good relationship and a fairly decent income for six previous kids... I haven't read the news about it so I've learnt everything about this woman through this thread. I'm amazed and shocked (in a good way I think).

I think Storm mentioned how some people want 'their own' kids and I completely understand this. My sisters all have their own kids and I love them bits, I can't wait until I have my own to raise them as my own. That said, I would be the sort who would love to adopt regardless of whether or not I could have kids. My feelings on adopting comes from seeing my neoghbour who has no kids and has now adopted a girl and a boy. My cousin doesn't have kids and would also love to adopt. On top of that, my mum has said she'd love to adopt but is getting quite old now, has health problems and would probably struggle to look after a toddler/baby every single day.

I know some people think of this lady as being selfish for having eight more babies when she a) already had six, b) was without a partner and thus lives with her parents and c) is unemployed?
Some people might now say "Oh, people like her will be entitled to more benefits" or "she's done it on purpose so she doesn't have to work" or "oh it's so unfair she has kids, we don't why isn't she just grateful for what she already has?" and so on.
I can understand why she would want her 'own' kids, and I think it's quite nice that she loves kids so much that she wants as many as fourteen now. A part of me does think she is slightly selfish because she is single and she now has to depend on others besides a partner to help her raise all these kids. I think it's unfair on her parents although I don't know what their ages/health and general well being are like.

I think it would be very difficult for some people who accept other babies they adopt as 'their own', naturally it would be difficult for anyone even if you did have your own kids already. Then there's also sibling rivalry and knowing how to treat all your kids the same etc. But that's parenting in general.

I don't think I could say "She's wrong and inconsiderate for having eight more kids" because she is a mother, she knows what it feels like and it's her desire. It must make her happy. Although, adopting kids would have been nice and imho, rewarding. If finance was anything to do with it, then I think I'd feel nicer knowing that money I got from adopting/fostering kids would go towards them in order to give them the best life possible.

General question on fertility and embryos etc... I don't know how it works but say a couple couldn't have kids, this embryo.. whose DNA/genes would it contain? Does the egg come from a woman who donated it and then the man whose wife is going to be carrying the baby has his sperm implanted into the egg...? Does that mean the baby would be the donor woman's baby and the baby of the man receiving the egg? (which is obviously put into his partner/wife)

General question on fertility and embryos etc... I don't know how it works but say a couple couldn't have kids, this embryo.. whose DNA/genes would it contain? Does the egg come from a woman who donated it and then the man whose wife is going to be carrying the baby has his sperm implanted into the egg...? Does that mean the baby would be the donor woman's baby and the baby of the man receiving the egg? (which is obviously put into his partner/wife)

That's it exactly. So there are big decisions to be made by the woman who is going to be receiving the embryo, in as much as she could consider it not to be really "her" baby as it wasn't her egg to begin with. Same situation if the woman's eggs are fine but the husband has problems, the embryo gets created with a donor's sperm, so the husband might get a complex and consider it not to be "his". In extreme situations you have to have donors for egg and sperm. It's something you never think of until it happens to you.

Thanks for the hug, Dilly :embarrassed:

PS I should point out that we don't know the reasons for our conceptions not happening, it's just one of those things. We've tried the ICSI route, and it failed, but they can't say why. We're self funded so it costs a hell of a lot, and so would further tests on both of us if we persisted with it. We're resigned to it.

If the woman's eggs are non viable but she is able to carry then she would be able to have the donor egg conceived with husband's sperm and then implanted, this would be done after administering drugs to ensure the womb wall would accept the embryo.

Obviously if she's not able to carry then they I believe that a surrogate would have to be brought into the equation but that's not something we had considered.

So now there would be several options:

A) Donor egg + husband sperm + wife's womb = baby
B) Donor egg + donor sperm + wife's womb = baby
C) Donor sperm + donor egg + wife's womb = baby
D) Donor sperm + donor egg + surrogate womb = baby

You have to look at these options and think, at what point does it stop being "mine" ? My opinion is C) or D) look a little bit off the chart for my liking (IMO).

In the UK if the woman is under 39 (I know they say 40 but you need to be 39+ 3 months maximum ... because +9 months = 40!) then she qualifies for 3 IVF cycles on the NHS. They will "harvest" eggs after stimulation of the ovaries and then inject them with viable sperm from the husband/donor. No matter how many are successful they will only implant a maximum of two, any others get frozen in storage after consent. The maximum used to be three but that got cut. If further IVF is needed they can use the ones in storage rather than make the woman take the drugs again - that's quite a stressful time, inhaling to downregulate then injecting to stimulate. Anyway afer 40, it is all self funded which can range from £3,500 ish to I don't know what. In extreme cases couples can travel abroad to USA or Switzerland or India for supposedly better treatment. Only drawback with that is the amount of drugs you have to take and nobody to call if you start having side effects (AFAIK).

Anyway back to the original topic. That's why it annoys me that she had 8 - the general rule is that implanting 2 embryos would have a 50% success rate (apparently) so she would have 1 at least. To have 8 means (theoretically) that she had 4 implanted embryos and these split to 8 but the chances of that are slim, I'd bet.

Maybe she had someone at the IVF clinic in on it? I don't know ... My personal view is she has become too greedy.

I'd also like to thank everyone who has PM'd me with their best wishes and hugs - yes, it's emotional, but miracles happen all the time, and we haven't given up.

/me gives out the huggly squeezy hugs to all the special nice people :)

/me hugs DeadyLocky
Not sure if anyone has seen the mother or heard her words as of yet, but there is a small interview clip here (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20090206/video/vwl-the-single-mother-of-octuplets-gives-15af341.html).

Any opinions?
I was shocked to learn that she is a single mother. You can find the article here (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20090206/twl-octuplets-mum-was-lonely-41f21e0.html).

Edit: Edited what I said due to reading more information/hearing more information in the press. Can't be asked to state it right now. I just honestly do not know what to think of her O_o

We've heard about this case extensively over here, and I have to say, this woman just p*sses me off! There is NO WAY she can possibly support all of those children properly without assistance. Just because she was an only child, yada yada yada... BOO HOO!They will most definitely require massive amounts of medical attention for the rest of their lives, the burden of which will be on the taxpayers. The earth is running out of resources, we can't keep reproducing at this rate indefinitely! Spectre, for being a 'naive teenager' you said it very well, I totally agree with everything you said. Good job!

I think it's crazy. How on earth can one parent support 14 children properly? I don't even mean just financially, but mentally etc. I'm a single father myself, and my one son is a handful for me at times - I could not imagine having another 13 kids to look after too. It would have been far more humane to implant only 2, 3 at the most, embryos (although even 9 kids IMO is too much for a single parent!). Madness.

I get how people feel about this situation but I think the death threats are taking it too far. http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20090211/tsc-uk-octuplets-011ccfa.html (using quick reply, cba with advance editting stuff)

I know people share opinions such as "she has too many kids when we/others have none" but those who threaten her in such a way are horrid imo. If they valued any life that much they wouldn't drive this woman into hiding. That I don't agree with.

It is a difficult situation, as I think that it's wrong to have that many children in the first place. But then, they are all human beings and they have a right to live their lives.

In my opinion this discussion borders on abortion as well as adoption. Some women have to make the absolutely awful decision whether to have an abortion or not. In the case of the octuplets, I admire the mother for keeping all 8 of her babies.

Some women have to make the absolutely awful decision whether to have an abortion or not.
I personally despise women who opt for an abortion because they have "too many children". If they had to have an abortion because it was a matter of life or death, fair enough. But to give a really crap reason as metioned... £$!&%&*!$!! :mad: :cry:

Hmmm... I can't quite understand why someone would send her death threats - she made a personal choice and by doing so hasn't prevented the chances of somebody else conceiving. If she is "cheating the system" surely there are far easier ways than giving birth to and bringing up 8 children!

I admire her for keeping all of her babies too (keeping as in keeping them alive) but that's what she wanted in the first place so abortion wasn't really an issue I don't think.

Perhaps something to lighten the mood a bit...

http://www.cbrich.com/octo-mom-song-aka-mo-babies/

/me runs

Yes great discussion here.
Personally people have said it all already, if the babies are cared for ect then its not bothering me at all.
So she has six kids already, so then she is used to motherhood good luck to her and all the 8 babies i hope they florish and live happy lives.

Dennys has a new Octo-mom special


It has 14 eggs, no sausage, and the table next to you pays the bill.

Lol.. !

Thanks for bumping the thread. I was meaning to add something in here, but was lazy about it!

As of now, we've heard a few more newer things about this Octo-mum. She supposedly is a huge fan of Angelina Jolie - to the point where she wants to be like her. I've read that Angelina wanted many kids 'cause she was a lonely child. And this Octo mum, Nadya, has said the same. She's apparently also had plastic surgery to make herself look like Angelina, and also sends her fan mail. Angelina has said she's "creeped out" by it all.

What's funny is that when I saw the first video interview of her, about a month ago, I remember thinking, "wow, that's some serious amount of plastic surgery she's had done!". I mean, let's face it, I'm sure most of us know when someone has had surgery - when it's on the face. Even if it is seeing someone for the first time. Anyways, after these allegations of being like Angelina, she's denied even having plastic surgery... Which I think is a bit silly :S

So, anyway.. if this is all really true and she is obsessed with Angelina, to the point of wanting kids, just to be like her.. what do you think should be done with her, if anything? Would you class it as a mental problem? If so, would do you think she should be given help, have the kids taken away from her, see it as no big deal, etc?

What I don't understand.. is that she must clearly have some money to be having surgery done. Oh, and she's apparently got her own website.. where you can DONATE money to bringing up her children!

I'd like to hear what people think of all of this.

Ok wasn't sure where I wanted to post this but here is as good a place as any I guess.

My husband just sent me this e-mail I thought it was hillarious:



The hottest new Halloween costume.
This will be flying off the shelves come October!

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h23/Nynachicken/Halloween.jpg