What do you think about the title of this thread? Do you think we are destroying the earth? If you do... What are YOU doing about it? Do you think that if we continue to use earths natural resources at the rate we are going, how long do you think before there is no more, or it costs so much to obtain that only the rich will be able to afford it? Are you "going green"? Do you have any tips to help others "go green"? Do you think that the way we pollute the earth is contributing to the rise in natural disasters and ozone depletion? Or do you think that the earth just goes through phases and this one of those phases(e.g... ice age)? Maybe you just dont give a hoot one way or another? I sure would like to know what you think.

My view is that we are using natural resources at a geometric rate and it couldnt be too long before we are out. Alternate sources need to be found and allowed(I do believe there are some that the government wont let out of their secret vaults, all because of money and politics). Its gonna take more that just a few people to turn things around at this point. Who knows, we may already be past the point of no return. I know I dont want my offspring or their offspring to live in a wasteland of nothing.
Ive even heard rumours that "big money" dumps tons of food into the ocean, just to create a scarcity and drive the prices higher, putting more money into their pockets. Where and when will it end or will we let it continue to get worse? Will we continue to let "big money" dictate what and how much resources we use?

I have taken some steps to go green, here are some:
Changed all regular lights bulbs to flourescent bulbs that use less than half the power of regular bulbs and last up to 4 times longer.
Use all printer paper, front and back, before discarding.
I no longer obtain a receipt from the ATM machine(saves paper).
I drive less than I used to... Not only to cut down on my fuel consumption but to save money as well.
I(yes, finally) have started watching how much water I use being mindful to turn off the faucet when im not using it instead of letting it run in between uses(like if im washing fruit... I would let it run from one peice to the next now I turn it off till im ready to rinse off the next peice).
Filled a gallon milk jug with water, capped it and placed in the toilet tank. The tank fills up faster and uses less water per flush.
Turn off the shower when Im lathering us as opposed to letting it run.
Buy recycled products where I can.
AND... Im making a continued effort looking for more ways to cut my consumption of natural resources.

__________________

Good thread!

I'm trying my best to turn lights off in rooms as I leave them. That's the thing Mr. Vik always tells me off about.

We try to be green - we recycle everything that's possible to recycle and I use public transport a lot.

On our toilet there are two flush options - a light one which uses hardly any water and a more powerful one.

__________________

Yeah the earth is going to die out sooner or later if we don't save it... :(
We are destroying the trees, using up oil, water, and our resources. Whenever either of my parents tell me to off the tap or to use the other side of a paper, I'll be defiant and tell them I don't care. Well, I know my mistake now, I will try my best to save our planet, but I can't promise on that as it will be difficult..

I'm sorry.

Going 'Green' is very good, but the science behind how it is done has to be correct.

eg Two recent and current examples:

Plastic shopping bags:
The concept of not using plastic bags is very correct. ie we use them, and then throw them away, rather than re-using or having permanent shopping bags.
This saves on oil (plastics are generally derived from oil), waste, landfill/disposable, and helps the environment in all sorts of ways.
However... one of the reasons put forward for the elimination of bags, is that they biodegrade very slowly, and are eaten by sealife - killing the sealife.
The biodegradability is generally true of almost all plastics though, so why the damnation on just shopping bags? The packaging of products, put into the shopping bags, should be where effort is aimed.

The reason shopping bags are singled out for killing wildlife, is also flawed. The scientific research was, carried out in the 80's, off Canada, and the actual scientific report, said that 'plastic fishing nets' was to blame. Somehow this was reported as 'plastic bags', and ever since this has become a publicly repeated 'urban myth'.

The oceans are awash with plastic remnants, even pristine looking water, has thousands of plastic granules (nurdles). And if you live near the Pacific island of Midway, it's even worse.


Biofuels:
These represent the worst possible 'green' scenario. They are intended to replace oil as a fuel. Some of the problems with them are:
1. Growing space - they require vast quantities of land to grow, which previously grew food crops. The price of bread is shooting up, as a direct result of the switch to biofuel crops. This has nothing to do with China/India consumption - their grain requirements have remained steady, whereas the EU has become a NET importer of grain. (It also didn't help that the EU sold off it's grain mountain last year... at rock bottom prices )
For the 1st time in a very long time, the world is likely to not have enough food to sustain itself... and rather than being a naturally induced disaster (flood/drought/storm), it's a man made one.

2. Power output - they don't produce as much power as the equivalent oil based product, plus the energy expended on growing/cutting/producing/transporting, makes it unattractive as well.

3. Pollution - The biproducts of producing/burning many of the biofuels are as bad as any other.

4. CO2 - Still produces a vast amount of CO2

5. And Finally, it doesn't tackle the underlying problem with our consumption of Oil, the private motor car - all that energy, to make a steel/plastic box, to move mainly 1 or 2 people from A->B.

The EU has made it law that 10% of fuel must be biofuel based.... Rapeseed oil for breakfast anyone?

__________________
I'm to blame for everything. A Mind Anagrammer

JASR that was some great information. Especially the link about the plastic in the ocean.
I knew that plastic was a bad thing for sea creatures but I didnt know it was that bad, that it actually infiltrated a deeper aspect, working its way into the very ecology of ocean life.
Im glad you brought up reusing plastic grocery bags. I forgot to add that to my list of tips. Though I actually think, after reading that, that im not doing enough by reusing them as garbage bags. I think since I have a stockpile of rolled up grocery bags on hand I think I will start taking some to the store with me and re-use them there as well instead of getting new ones.

__________________

Yup, we're destroying the earth. BUT.. AJ is the biggest destroyer.
Too many beans.
Yup, you guessed what the outcome is. Poor humanity.

Btw, JASR, nice post!

I try and save as much as I can, I don't think it'll make much of a difference at the end of the day, 'cause the way we're going with the resources, the earth WILL get destroyed sooner or later, anyway. That said, it does bring a bit of satisfaction to my little heart when I recycle things, or save on water where I can, etc. Gotta remember those people that don't even have what we have :/

If anything should be done in order to lower the consumption of fossil fuels, while avoiding biofules, is increase spending in research. Especially research that will lead to the development of a clean way to obtain pure hydrogen.

Fuel cells combust hydrogen to produce electricity and the byproduct is water. Fuel cells can power anything, from a cellphone to a big SUV, but currently the cheaper ways to obtain hydrogen are to either decompose fossil fuels, which cancels hydrogen out as a solution, or via hydrolysis, which uses electricity which is most commonly obtained through burning of coal or fossil fuels like lpg which also cancels hydrogen out as a solution.

So what do we do? We find ways to not cancel hydrogen out. The best way i could think of is water generated electricity to power massive hydrolysis plants... but we'd have to build a lot more dams to generate enough power to keep out cities running and do hydrolysis but that means destruction of riverside habitats and valleys to fill them up with water to get the dams running.

That or coating the earth's surface with high effiency photoelectric cells...

there ain't no easy answer to pull it off. In then end it's just not sustainable at the rate we're growing as a population.

Then again, about 50% of the earth population could drop dead... then the problem would be greatly diminished.

__________________

I barely eat beans and that's so not true you fart squidder!
Bring on the plague! Eek! Actually, I'm a bit scared of syphilis since studying it :S

I recycle where I can, including plastic bags. I have the stronger ones from Supermarkets, but I forget to take them when I go shopping so I always end up with more plastic bags than expected.
I do like the idea of paper bags, they are stronger than normal plastic bags too. I would also like to see more of those cloth like bags 'cause they'd certainly last longer and they're nicer to hold!

Regarding packaging of items, in out area the council provide recycle bins for each household which we put out once a week. We recycle paper, books, card, glass, fruit and veg waste, plants, weeds etc. We can also recycle *some* plastic containers. This annoys me though because we can recycle milks cartons and bottles but not plastic fruit boxes or whatever and it completely baffles me! It's plastic, does it matter what kind? It's like the drink bottles but slightly thinner and I've no idea why the recycle people refuse to take it :|

When it comes to water, I tend to have long showers between 10 and 30 minutes. I rarely have proper baths where you fill up the tub. I unfortunately don't turn the water off when lathering and never have although I've been told so many times! I kinda have this thing about needing the water to be on when using soap and having a wash. Yes, I'm a weird little freak, but I can't help it. I don't like having soap on my hands or whatever for longer than I need to and I did think about that the other day :/
I do however, turn the water off when brushing my teeth and I try to between washing fruit/veg/dishes etc.

Our toilets are awful, they use so much water and that bugs me. It has done ever since I found out toilets can use up to 9 litres of water per flush, I found that out 7/8 years ago :/

I've been thinking about how I can contribute, I fail because I just started taking driving lessons last month. Oops?

Good thread btw.

__________________

Hi. This is a really, really controversial topic. To me, all your similar opinions are very extreme, and I'm sure you will think the same about mine because they so obviously contrast. Just keep in mind that I'm not (just as none of you are) intending any personal attacks or attacks on belief or whatever on those who are "green" or "environmentally friendly" or "not tested on animals." You get my point.

That frame of mind really aggrivates me. Environmental things like trees and and rivers and the air and vegans and rainbows are obviously not important to me. They do not affect me directly. What I care about more is what's in my wallet.

But these are some messages that I get from environmentalists:
- Buy pricier things because they're "better" for the environment. For example, Hybrid cars. Look, all I want a car for is private transportation--and to show it off to my friends. And another example is organic food. Ok, hippies, if it tastes good, I'll eat it. It just better be affordable, too.
- Boycott things I like because they're "bad" for the environment. For example, Nintendo. All I care about is ease, entertainment, and fun in my games. Toxic chemicals have never affected my gameplay one bit.
- "Join us ... together!" That just sounds scary.
- "Do it because it will make you feel better." Or "do it because you'll make a difference." Yawn.

What really set me off one VERY recent night (and I'm still making a fuss about it) was a few commercials all within the same half-hour block: a Walmart commercial of a couple of teen girls using their teen slang to advertise their T-shirts made from recycled Coke bottles. Hey, I'll buy the Coke. And then, this "solve the crisis" commercial that is making an attempt to lead us to believe that we have an environmental crisis and we must "join together" to "solve" it. Yuck. And then, a slightly separate but related commercial for Pampers that advertises for each pack of diapers sold, some baby in a foreign country will be vaccinated.

I greatly respect the strategy these companies are using by referring to the message of "going green" or some global, crisis-saving message like that. But the big thing that bugs me is that people are actually concerned about that stuff.

To say more, nobody has been pressuring me to do anything to "help" or "save" our environment. Then again, I'd probably refuse. I don't know much about recycling. If it's trash, then I'll throw it away, but I don't want think think about what piece of trash goes in which container. If it's water, I'll run it until the house floods, if it wasn't for drains. If it's paper, I'll mispell a word, crumble up the paper, throw it away, and get a new piece. One of my dreamiest dream cars is a giant Hummer. Again, you get my point.

But the environment is just plain unimportant to me. The key thing to note is that I don't believe it impacts me at all. And more, I could care less about the world after I'm dead. (Come on; I'll be dead.) With the work that a bunch of other people are doing to "stay green," I could easily live off of the results of their actions and relax in my steaming hot 30-minute-long shower while the hallway and bedroom lights are turned on and the radio and TV and electric fan are all on full blast. You know, smilar to this article. It's not like my way of thinking is popular or anything, so I'll just leave the dirty voluntary work to the "green" folks.

I'd say more. But I will stop here. Thanks for the touchy thread.

__________________
"Do I believe in the Bible? Hell, I've seen one!"

Why does one post in a thread that one does not care about? It's like going to the chocolate chip cookie thread and saying: "I don't careeeeeeee". It doesn't contribute.

If you do not care, I honestly do not see why you post. If you don't give a monkey's about the topic, then please truly do not give a monkey's - about the thread. Now don't assume I'm trying to shut you up; have your say, free speech and what not, but seriously, if something isn't adding anything, why post? Just in general.

If you don't care to move things forward, please don't move things backward.

Having said that...

If I think about your post, sketches - your point is not that you do not care, but that it's a financial thing for you. But that point is buried in all the other stuff about not giving a damn.

Or perhaps I'm being overly generous here, because actually, you seem to be contradicting yourself:

If what you care about is your wallet, then using less water is less expensive; and you'll trash paper if it has one mistake one it, when in fact, it would be cheaper to use it as rough paper next time? I'm sorry - am I missing the logic here?

And FYI, I'm not attacking your belief (which is either "I don't care", or "I care about my cash flow" - I don't know which; I hope it's the latter, because at least that is relevant), but I did want to make a few points about

a) posts that basically says one does not care about the topic, and

b) connections in your logic which I seem to have missed - you're very welcome to reply to this, indeed, please do.

__________________

Correct me if I've misunderstood but, was she not invited to express her opinions even if she didn't care? Is there not a choice to vote in this poll if you don't care? If I voted that I didn't care about the environment and it was the type of poll that showed who voted what, I'd want to back up my reasoning. Freedom of speech. Remember, you don't have to read all the posts on this forum but if you do, know that there are others who do not share the same opinion as everyone else. It's interesting to know about, so try to be open minded about others.

__________________

anyone ready to get back on the topic of the environment instead of the argument bout whether or not someone is allowed to go against environmental issues?

btw, me opinion - the world is being destroyed and i still dont understand most of the reasons why. (though i have to say, its really sad :(

__________________

First of all, I want to thank EVERYONE for their input so far and encourage ANYONE else to give their opinion... Im learning things, how about you?

or maybe not...

LMAO XD



That is cool, I want one like that. I always figured that a certain primary function of ours could use significantly less water to flush. Thus the "light" flush.

Storm, I see where you are coming from and appreciate your words...
But, I think AJ did say it best on this particular subject of your post.

However....

I very much agree with with your point here and wonder if/when a reply will come?

also this:
If you dont care, then why would it aggravate you? Like storm was saying "contradicting".

Nothing is contraversial unless someone creates contraversy.
(I think that'll have to be my next sig quote! lol)

Organic and eco-friendly products cost more because the cost of producing these items is higher as well... e.g... a paper company makes FSC certified paper. (FSC is Forest Stewardship Council) To be FSC certified means that every step of the production from the forest plot, the logger, the pulp manufacturer, the paper maker, the converter, the distributer all have to do things in a sustainable manner. It takes time and money to make sure all the different parties involved operate their businesses in such a sustainable manner and therefore the end product is more expensive. (Source: Person that works for the paper company.)

Additionally, to be eco-friendly usually means not cutting corners, not ploughing to the edge of field, not cutting down every tree, etc...

If it was cheaper to make products in a "green" fashion then all companies would already be doing it. Same as with organic foods. If it was cheaper to grow foods organically, all foods would be organic, because it would be beneficial to the farmers to do so.(Source: Cost Accountant)

Furthermore, If you dont wish to contribute positively to society than you are just filling space on this planet, kinda more like a parasite. You sound like a "me" person. Its all about "me". The world revolves around "me". Nobody else matters, but "me". "Me"?, I could care less about that. Oh wait sorry, you said you did care about something "your wallet"
Im also wondering how old you are? Do you not plan on having children? You're basically saying that you dont care what kind of world your children would live in after you are dead? How do you know there are enough resources left for YOU to live how you do for all your days? Makes me feel sorry for you and them(present/future children/family). But thats just my opinion.




And thats why I put this thread in the DEBATE section of the forum. Whoo!

__________________

It's not a contradiction.

She says she doesn't care about the environment that much; which isn't the same as not caring about the debate about it. What she was saying annoys her is the messages that are given out on the subject, and that it's constantly being shoved in her face.


eg: someone who doesn't care about football can be annoyed that it's always on TV.

Just on the general topic about caring about what's in one's wallet, this is a real thing. There will be people out there who say they care about the environment but as soon as it comes down to money they forget all about it.

The recent politics in London, i.e voting for a new Mayor came down to money. The two main candidates Ken Livingstone and Borris Johnson may have been supported pretty much 50:50 but the reason why Ken Livingstone lost was simply because Londoners did not like the idea of the Congestion charge and he was the one who created it.

Londoners were annoyed about having to pay a few quid to travel into central London, they're annoyed about the new low emission zones, they think it's a scam and the government or whoever just wants their money.
As a result of caring too much about what's in your wallet, you vote the biggest joke on Earth to be in charge of you.
It's clear that since the congestion charge came into action that there has been less traffic in London, people are using public transport more, therefore reducing, albeit, ever so slightly the amount of pollution around here. One form of proof can be noticing that after a visit to the city one's snot is not a black as what it would have been a few years ago

Oh, and tree huggers? What do they write on? Slates?

__________________

I think Tree Huggers write on Elephant or Rhino Poo.

Hehe.. hubby bought a pack of notepads from savetherhino (he's not a tree hugger). I didn't realise that a lot of the stuff come from rhino dung, though. Pretty neat.

That said, AJ still has a point. I know plenty of tree huggers who write on actual paper that comes from trees. *girlie gasp*. Some go to the lengths of using resources that you've linked us to (don't get me wrong), but others just take the biscuit and make such a noise about cutting down trees when they use the resources that come from it, anyways.

hm. no matter what we're all using up resources. no duh . but we can try to do our best to help out in other ways anyway

btw. saw something up there bout not caring about the planet after you've died. i dunno, maybe if you have kids or something or someone of a younger generation that you care about, once you've gone?, you'd be leaving the people you care about (hopefully) a mostly destroyed planet and the problems you've caused. just some thoughts..

__________________

Actually, what I said was contradicting was the fact that sketches said she cared about her wallet, but her actions don't seem to follow:

__________________

yes, but you also said she shouldn't post if she doesn't care and I was highlighting the difference between not caring about the environment and not caring about the discussion.............................

I didn't disagree with that point.

I was simply highlighting that that was not what I said was contradicting...

__________________

Dang, we should make a thread to discuss disagreeing and contradicting

Let's not ruin Atreyu's thread by going somewhat off topic :)

Wowser. I sure do learn something new everyday!
I'd actually buy a jotter or notebook or whatever but only if it as A4 size so I'd make the most of it. Two really interesting links - thanks!

__________________

No, you're right, and I understand what you're saying. When I'm out on my own, I'll begin to understand a whole lot more. But for now, I work -- I'm about to get a second job -- and I am starting to pay for what I need in this house little by little before I finally move out...

Water costs money, but it's not expensive here. In my house, typically my mom buys 24-packs of water bottles for $12 each for the family ...which sometimes makes me think we're just paying for the bottles instead of the water. I get water for free at restaurants and other stores and places. And I can get paper very cheap at stores, or for free from anyone I know!

__________________
"Do I believe in the Bible? Hell, I've seen one!"

OK, sketches. I still think it would be cheaper to reuse paper instead of buying it again, though. And by water I was referring to the taking long showers thing. Although, I will admit, I don't really think much about water when I think about the environment. I might turn the tap off when I'm brushing my teeth, and I might turn the shower off when I'm lathering, but on the whole, I don't think I save all that much water anyway this way. In fact, I think the times I really save water are when I go home. Coz we don't use showers/baths, we just fill up buckets and use mugs. This way probably saves much more water than showers or baths. Or how about going and taking a dip in the river... hehe, that's what my grandmother used to do :)

The whole buy-bottled-water thing peeves me off a bit. Especially in terms of the environment. I have a friend whom I shared a flat with in Scotland, and every week she'd bring home 1 litre bottles of water to drink, when the tap water was drinkable. I was like, "just drink from the tap, it's clean?" And she'd be like, "no but it tastes different" I think it's scam, and it's shameful. =/ Especially in a country like the UK where you can drink tap water.

Does America have drinkable tap water too?

Something else that struck me the other day... hybrid cars. Yes, they are expensive, but I figure it's a one-off investment, and you don't need to keep buying petrol (the price of which is constantly rising: ~US$4/gallon, and ~115.8 p/litre), so, doesn't that make a hybrid which doesn't need fuel cheaper in the long term? Seriously. Is it because there isn't a wide enough range yet as normal cars, or are people waiting for the selling price to drop before they get one? I figure if SUVs and Hummers were status symbols in the past, hybrids are probably the status symbol of the present... .

__________________